Discussion Are readers becoming lazy?

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Redblue, Aug 9, 2020.

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  1. emiliers

    emiliers Well-Known Member

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    The example you provided isn't a case of laziness; it's a case of readers growing up and having less free time. I know I've read plenty of things to completion while I was a teenager that I most likely would simply drop now because the amount of free time I have now, as an adult, is far less.

    For a good writer, even if nothing happens in the early chapters, they should still be capable of making the setup interesting enough to engage the readers. If a story gets good only after fifty (or even a hundred) chapters, then that's an issue with the author, and not the readers. Sure, it's nice to see authors getting their bearings after a while, but readers shouldn't have to force themselves through chapters of mediocrity before getting there. Like, more power to the ones who can, but I'm no longer one of them.
     
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  2. Mahou-nii-sama

    Mahou-nii-sama Ultimate Cannon Fodder

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    Why are you cucking yourselves? It's literally on How to Write 101, that an author must grab the reader's attention. Just look at the classics, they have epic openings, a great example is Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. "Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta."

    Now imagine cucking yourself by saying a novel that started with "I was 16 years old when I got killed by truck-kun..." that uses the same rehashed plot and same stereotypical harem pokemon bitches is gonna get better after 10 god-awful chapters.

    If it doesn't capture me in the first chapter then it's good as an ass-wiper to me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  3. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Yanno... I wrote a whole novel with 20 chapters. If your novel needs 30 chapters to start getting interesting, then there is a serious issue with your writing.

    So no, I'm not gonna sit through 30 chapters of garbage to find a gem, I'd rather find a gem from the getgo. 1 chapter is usually enough to judge the quality of a novel, so... At most I'd give 5. If it couldn't grab my attention in 5 chapters, then there is no hope for the story.

    Like, geez, the first 10 minutes are the most important ones, yanno that? If the first 10 minutes that a reader spends in your novel don't make them want to read more, then you failed as a writer... And not only you failed, but you failed at the most important part of your entire story.

    Pretty much the only way you'll get people to read through garbage to find a gem, is if you have a big enough name to yourself that makes people willing to overlook a bad start for the promise of a great series ahead... Like if you're Tolkien or something. Otherwise, you gotta make that beginning hook your reader.
     
  4. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    I wouldn't go as far as to say that someone has failed as a writer just because the beginning of a story didn't hook readers properly.
    While the idea of sitting through 30 or 100 boring chapters for a story to get better is often derided(often with good reason), that doesn't change the fact that some people actually do just that and might truly end up loving the story in the end.
    If the only fault that a story has is lacking a strong hook at the start then I would argue that it is less of a failure as a writer and more a failure in marketing the story to a wider audience.
    That said though, there are plenty ways a story can start off badly other than just being boring, and I can't deny I drop plenty of stories in the first few chapters myself.
    While I partly agree with this I need to point out that there is some authors that gain their name recognition from the very same stories that do have that bad start, you shouldn't underestimate what word of mouth from the readers that did stick with it can do for a story.
    A particular example of this is Steven Erikson's Malazan series, it begins with a lengthy 700+ pages book that is often considered confusing and the worst in the series, and pretty much starts in medias res.
    But despite that first book often turning away first time readers the series as a whole still tend to be well regarded and has a fairly significant fanbase, though of course that is not something you would expect to work out for most series.
     
  5. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Well, "failing as a writer" is a bit of an exaggeration for sure... But well, the idea was that it was important to get the point across that the beginning must be well done as that is the most important part of your story.
    Well, to me the boredom is the main issue in most cases. If I just don't feel like continuing because I'm not particularly engaged nor care for the story, then... Meh, might as well quit.

    I can't think of many other things that make it bad enough to the point of dropping at least! >.<
    Well, I'd say the entire story of Tolkien is boring from the beginning until the end, so I can totally understand where you're coming from! xD

    Just well... It's good to understand those big names are the exception and not the norm~
     
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  6. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    I won't deny that I drop a lot of stories as well because I find them boring personally, I just tend to hesitate in calling those stories bad because "boring" and "uninteresting" isn't really substantial criticism and about as subjective as you can get.
    It is totally a valid reason for dropping a story, but not exactly something I would for example go out of my way to write a review or something for.

    Unless of course if I can go into detail why I find it boring and why it might not apply to everyone.
     
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  7. catatopatch

    catatopatch Well-Known Member

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    Can I just say that this single line is amazing.

    Also, do not confuse a slow start for a bad start. Just because Lord of the Rings had a slow start, didn't mean it had a bad start. It communicated enough that I continued reading it as a child, despite its slow start. Never once did I tell myself that this stupid tome of a novel would be a shit show in the making.
     
  8. All The Wrong Novels

    All The Wrong Novels Well-Known Member

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    With the famous earlier writers, I think its more the case of difference in expectations from the original audience. There's things in the early parts of the work that really grabbed the original readers, but because they've been copied so much, or because the modern generation is overstimulated by the internet and has less attention span, newer readers don't always come to the books with the same expectations and the beginning doesn't work the same

    So I agree with people saying that its good for readers need to do some extra work themselves sometimes and its not always the authors fault. But this is usually the case for things that are well regarded but written for a very different audience than you, its not that there's nothing going on in the beginning, but the reader may not have the perspective to appreciate what's being done, but they may recognize it if they keep reading the book, otherwise they may need additional context.

    There are a lot of writers who are mediocre and waste a lot of chapters setting up, but do intermittently do interesting things that people end up liking a lot. Its not that its wrong to enjoy them or anything, but just realize that there's thousands of years of literature that doesn't do this and where each part was thoughtfully considered and made to be important. And in my experience the more you read the less patience you have for authors who waste time, and the more you want to read stuff that's well written from beginning to end.
     
  9. ToastedRossi

    ToastedRossi Well-Known Member

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    Not all stories work the same way so they're not going to all build up the same way. While some readers demand that the books they read have strong story hooks from the very beginning, that's not going to work for everything. And not should it or else we'd all just read Gu Long. A lot of the best stories have a lot of intricate detail so they're going to require a lot of build up to get going. I've read books that take a million words or more to fully ramp up. But that's not to say that this build up is a spot or uninteresting. A good writer can still do a lot of cool things in this build up period.

    That said I think the OP has a point. I don't think it's fair to call readers lazy, but I'd say that there are a lot out there who have undeveloped reading skills. This does keep better books from getting translated so while it's not precisely a problem it does hurt translators and limits what we can read.
     
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  10. Random.poet

    Random.poet Powered by Coffee

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    Looks like one of the reason why some busy readers tend to gravitate toward Quick Transmigrations.

    Just a quick observation, not an indepth analisis...

    Not that QT is bad or uncultured/shallow/lazy like people would love to think, some are good. But for readers that have less time to read, its enough to satisfy.
     
  11. Fulminata

    Fulminata Typo-ist | Officer of Heavenly Inc. |

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    How long is the novel? If the "good" part is only about 20-30% of the novel while the rest of it is a painful hike, i don't think that it's worthy.

    BUT

    Yes, i have to admit that I've seen a lot of review in here saying that a novel is "too slow", while after i read it, i personally think that these 'slow' parts are a crucial part of the world building. WN indeed tends to be characterized as a.. 'light', wish fulfilment reading materials, though. so people tends to expect instant gratification in them...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  12. Diametric

    Diametric Waifu Connoisseur

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    tl;dr, can you abbreviate your post?
     
  13. Lijaba

    Lijaba Active Member

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    I actually like books that take a while, if I catch up to the current chapter translated I save it and come back to it. I usually make a glossary for myself and have a sentence at the top of it so when I go back I remember. Doesn't bother me if the start-up takes awhile as long as it's interesting to me. I'm actually pretty annoyed if it goes straight to the action because i want the build up, background and details.
     
  14. Ruyi

    Ruyi translator at CG

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    As a translator myself, I sure hope there's something interesting in those first hypothetical 29 chapters to keep them translating. Otherwise, we'd get bored too.

    And I agree with most of the posters here. If it can't capture me within the first five chapters, I'm usually out. What happens is that the more time I spend reading, the less time I have translating, which means the more readers are screaming.

    That and the fact that I could be reading something better (or finding another hidden gem)!
     
  15. Bachingchung

    Bachingchung Well-Known Member

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    I think it goes along with the current generation's lack of attention span. That's why tiktok is so hip right now because it's filled with 7 - 60 sec clips of only the good parts. No intro, no narrative, no set ups everything straight to the punchlines or tiddies and ass.
     
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  16. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    This really depends on story length. Most common story structure is 3-act structure, which, if the novel is around +100 chapters, it's fair for the novel to have around 30 chapters for the setup.

    Most common mistake that WN authors make is that they're making things happen to soon in the first act as to make the story "interesting". This is a fatal mistake stemmed by ignorantly implementing the industry wisdom "grabbing readers' attention by the first page". Writing a great hook is one of writing craft that some writers possess, and some don't, but it by no means tell the quality of authors' works. Inexperienced authors who forced their way to do this without proper training are being at risk of sacrificing the later parts of their stories by not properly laying foundation in the first act (which is why you'll rarely encounter web novels with decent ending nowadays). There are slow burn and steady stories that have mostly interesting part after the story setup, and sophisticated audience/readers who enjoy those will probably agree if the writer rushed the story in early part then the said story would never be excellent as it already is.
     
  17. Aye_Aye

    Aye_Aye Active Member

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    0: IMO
    It really does depend on two factors: the story's audience and its story arcs.

    1: AUDIENCE
    If you've baited your readers because you came up with a really good, original concept, they will most likely stay to see that idea come to fruition, unless for some reason they can't, due to overall lack of interest, time, etc.
    Other times, you may have a cliche concept that the readers like. This goes either way: it usually runs the risk of becoming boring unless the author finds some way to spice it up to remove itself from the countless other novels with the same idea.
    If for some reason, your novel is being just for the sake of passing time, chances are you basically don't have a reader.
    Of course, this all means nothing because the author/translator/editor themselves cannot see who the readers are, what their intent for reading is, or if the readers even belong in any of those categories. However, the sooner you realize that these are the people you're working with, the sooner you can determine what's the best for your book to shine amongst the others. Never forget you're writing for 7 billion people in the world.
    You can only view your work with the most critical eye possible. This means you'll likely be biased about your own work, but you have to quickly realize that the only way to keep readers on your hook is to determine if they're willing to stay for as many chapters as it takes to get to the next exciting plot points.

    2: PLOT ADVANCEMENT
    In every story, there is guaranteed to be one or two story arcs that just don't appeal as well as the others do. As an author, it is your responsibility to figure out which arcs are the bottom of the barrel. Not to mention, it's also your call to determine the number of chapters those arcs should take.
    If your previous arcs are well written, chances are you don't have to worry about the plot advancement timeline, because your readers will tolerate your writing; Just make sure not to drag it out too long that they begin to become restless and hope that the arc ends soon in order to move on.
    If it just so happens that you have 2+ 'bad' arcs, you may want to fasten your pace, especially if your story itself is a very tired concept. At that point, you may want to quickly speed your way through to the next exciting plot point.

    3: GOOD ARCS?
    A story arc can only be considered well written if:

    (DISCLAIMER: I only know so much; As a reader, I am just an amateur. If you ask other people, they are sure to give you more arcs than the three I have thought of. Then again, it is 5AM. I'm sleep deprived.)

    - it introduces a new character that is either important to the story, the comedic relief, or cannon fodder meant to be scrapped after a single use. It must be said that if a romantic interest is introduced, that person must be able to push the plot forward or develop as a character, or else their existence is essentially useless. If said love interest is the only one pushing the plot forward, that is also a problem; the story cannot revolve around only the love interest. The MC must have other interests and motivations in mind to seem more human.
    - a life-changing event occurs of which the MC is pitted against the odds at the cost of their own life or the sacrifice of something precious to them. This allows for the MC to experience development as a human being and allows us as the reader to anticipate their changes and emotions in the story.
    - the MC is granted/wins/given a gift/ability/piece of information that makes them stronger and/or smarter. A story must not just be about loss, sacrifice and compromise. The ups and downs are what make a story interesting to read, and keeps the readers guessing what will happen.

    SIDE NOTE: I appreciate filler chapters because they break away from the plot for a while, which feels like a relief if it's beginning to become heavy. Of course, I count smut as filler, unless there's development involved, in which case, it no longer is a filler. Otherwise, filler is nice overall, as long as it doesn't pull the reader from the main story and isn't consistent enough to be annoying.

    4: CONCLUSION
    It is entirely the author's responsibility to be able to make readers hooked onto a story, though they must remember that most of the time, they cannot cater to everyone. If a translator wants the novel they're working on to be acknowledged or continued, despite slow updates or lack thereof, they should ask their readers to be patient with the updates, and then hope for the best. There really isn't much to do if your novel isn't interesting enough to a lot of people.

    Again, IDK if I have to repeat or not, but I will. I am not a professional author, translator, editor or even reader. But as someone who likes to analyze and theorize about things, I'd just like to share my opinion on this matter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  18. uaxk7edhtf73rgg

    uaxk7edhtf73rgg Well-Known Member

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    i'm so lazy i don't even read novels, i just copy and paste the text in a text-to-speech program (meant to be used by the illiterate or disabled or both )..

    and then i lay back and have a it read to me.



    generally speaking i look at reviews , if others say it gets good after 30+ chapters then i'll give it the benefit of the doubt.
     
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  19. Chu2

    Chu2 Sunshine~

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    Readers have a life outside of reading. It's not like they have the time to get through 30 chapters of boring stuff just to get to the good part. And even if they do, they shouldn't have to. Readers can't be expected to know "this novel gets better after XX chapters", so the beginning is vitally important to set the expectation of the quality for the rest of the novel. It is unreasonable to expect a reader to continue reading a boring/poor quality novel in the hope - which isn't even guaranteed - that the novel will get better.
     
  20. TiggerBane

    TiggerBane Always asleep yep yep yep| Canidae lover

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    Are readers becoming lazy. Not in the slightest are readers becoming more picky with what they read maybe. Let me talk about a relatively large book called Downbelow Station. This book was published back in 1981 and has 526 pages the publisher DAW created an entirely new category size for the book. This was because it was larger at the time than most other books on the market. Of course the size of the book may vary since it wasn't printed in the modern page size but in the smaller size that was more common for books of that era.

    Jump forward in time a few years in time to 1996 A game of Thrones this book is suddenly even bigger according to my google since I realised only after writing this that I didn't have the book. It's 694 pages long that's an extra 168 pages in length to the book over what was at the time a book that much bigger that it had to be marketed in a new way and this is at the more common book size that we have today. So it's probably even bigger.

    If we Jump forward again to 2010 The Stormlight Archive book one, The Way of the Kings the book has 1256 pages in length when in the same page sizings as Downbelow Station. After 29 years we have an extra 730 pages in length to the first book in a series. Yet you are telling me readers have gotten lazier? They aren't willing to put as much effort into reading something?

    For a comparison to the Downbelow station a book published in 1987 by DAW Arrows of the Queen has somewhere around 320 pages in length. Much closer in length to industry standards of the time but the book sitting in my collection at home just feels small. I'd attach a photo if my phone wasn't broken but sadly it is. Similarly the readers digest used to have included in them 4 books they might be a series they might only have three and some exceptions have 5 but they have generally 500-600 pages in them. Yet you want to tell me readers are becoming lazier because we aren't reading 100 chapters of a book till it gets good?

    TLDR: 40 years ago the average book was massively smaller than the modern book. They often where compiled into 4 book compilations by Reader's Digest to entice readers to try out new things and new authors these 4 book compilations are still smaller than the addition of pages between The Way of Kings and Downbelow Station. Both relatively big books for their time which is 30 years apart.
     
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