Discussion Are there really villianesses in otome games?

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by IrregularPerson, Dec 7, 2021.

  1. IrregularPerson

    IrregularPerson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    299
    Reading List:
    Link
    I've read my fair share of fantasy romance and recently made a friend who is an avid otome game fan. I also am a huge game development fan. So the problem is, regardless of visual novels of any genres, planning a throw away villainess or multiple even is kind of nonsensical. In written and drawn media they're very cliche antagonists, and it would be more bang-for-your-buck to get a lovely supporting character instead of a cheap antagonist. Villainesses don't have the same weight, influence and interference as an actual antagonist, or final boss in comparison and that is even stretching it when the whole plot is reliant on the heroine and one specific suitor. Of course it should feature the relationship in a dating game, but the point is, that leaves little room for an over arching plot where a big bad can possibly interfere in all given routes/endings.
    Reverse harem endings also seem nonexistent unfortunately. But I can confirm that being a heroine is synonymous to death, though that's dependent on the genre. Death flags are associated more with the heroine than the villainess, so whats with all the death flags for a villainess?
    So that begs question, did the trope originate from harem intrigue or namely romance dramas? Like was there a period of time before the premise was an "otome game" or any visual novel for that matter. It's honestly refreshing to see an author racking their brains or just going with it, outside of the mainstream isekai. Like it's no longer about "fate" or "prophecies" but the predestined and what was written.
    Endo and Kobayashi's Commentary. It plays off the "otome game", gives urgency and properly makes use of the characters.
     
    Ruzova likes this.
  2. pleasepickthisup

    pleasepickthisup ✨pretty✨

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    110
    Reading List:
    Link
    This is a really really really good point you bring up.
    Because you're right, I've never seen a villainess in an otome game.
    The only enemy bratty targets who get annoyed at literally anything you do LOL.
     
  3. MikotoP

    MikotoP Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    878
    Reading List:
    Link
    So far the only “villainess” character I’ve encountered would be Rika from Amnesia, who does actually die in one of the endings.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
    AliceShiki and IrregularPerson like this.
  4. Bachingchung

    Bachingchung Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes Received:
    690
    Reading List:
    Link
    The user/player/MC is basically the villainess or the MC. Since the MC would be the sole female character on this kind of games, your options would lead you to the villainess route, or in other words you'll finish the main story without having any romantic relationship with your supposed to be harem.

    Otome Games are made by men who thinks this is what female gamers want, so they made this ideal world for women. However, their internal misogyny would see a villainess character as someone who won't form a romantic relationship with men. In a way, the Isekai'd characters on these kind of novels who prefers to be "low-key (as if)" is still some sort of a villainess.
     
  5. sleepycaptions

    sleepycaptions Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2020
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    89
    Reading List:
    Link
    No. The trope originated from older shoujo manga villainess’, not otome games. The entire genre is a mix of otome games and classic shoujo tropes, or at least that’s how it started out, with the progression of falling in love (whether between the villainess and ML or original heroine and ML) being similar to that of the games but the character types being based mostly of old school shoujo character types.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
    mallekei, asriu, Lissi and 5 others like this.
  6. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Messages:
    4,064
    Likes Received:
    12,717
    Reading List:
    Link
    Well, one of the most popular villainess novels has been adapted into an otome game, so technically, yes.

     
    Lissi, AliceShiki and LK like this.
  7. Gin_Hindew

    Gin_Hindew Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2017
    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    405
    Reading List:
    Link
    Villainesses are more of a soup opera thing, where it makes sense for an existing character to hand around furthering their agenda
    They are also effective in "naive MC versus rich bitch" scenarios, because, as a rich bitch the villainess has resources, connections and spare time to bully the MC out of dating their love interest
    And yes, they are often offed at the end of the story via accidents, plan backfire or loss of social and financial support, because its an easy way to have them die without the MC sullying their pretty hands
     
    Sabruness likes this.
  8. Sabruness

    Sabruness Cultured Yuri Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Messages:
    3,889
    Likes Received:
    4,458
    Reading List:
    Link
    isnt that basically the "villainess" type role though?

    @op you're trying to apply logic to something inherently illogical. That's why villainesses in media are so flat as characters and the plots have more holes than a colander. As for where the 'otome game' tropes originate from? Who knows at this stage. probably a bit of this, a bit of that and a heaping spoon of nonsense mixed into an unholy confection.
     
  9. Aachiin0914

    Aachiin0914 ☼Sunnyshies☼

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    1,249
    Reading List:
    Link
    I think the villainess in oteme games depend on whose POV were looking for.

    Because in some otome game novels they really justified the villainess...

    In some classic Japanese otome game story the FL is really a white lotus, and it's super cringy stories. Then they reverse the plot, and the "protagonist" of the otome game always veiwed as a black widow, and the villainess as a innocent black lotus.

    Well, well this is only in Japanese novel. Their otome game theme are always unreasonable.

    But if it's talking about whose the villain in otome games it's actually the guys. The male love interests.

    Don't you guys notice, if the villainess is the protagonost the love interest is either a bg character or one of the side character of the otome games. If not, the ml is the hidden character.

    And the plot of Japanese otome game stories are very fictitious. Usually, even though your a prince you have no right to annul an engagement just like that. Because it was political arrangements and it will destroy the royal family.

    Western royalty isn't like imperial family. They need support from the Noble to continue reining and actually, what the orig protag of the otome game is doing (in politics view) is destroying the relationship between the Duke and the royal family or something like that.

    But we'll, it's a romance.

    So in ote games, all the prince in the are nothing but a puppet prince who don't know anything.

    Many otome game novels are going on today which did not focused on romance, but on politics. And it was very good.

    The classic otome game stories doesn't have much common sense...

    But if it's the villain, then let's talk about the people who always block your way. Then thats the villain.
     
    IrregularPerson likes this.
  10. Anra7777

    Anra7777 All powerful magic grammar hamster queen pirate.

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    3,781
    Likes Received:
    31,762
    Reading List:
    Link
    Is our lady and savior Bakarina available to play in the U.S.?
     
    AliceShiki likes this.
  11. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,859
    Likes Received:
    4,352
    Reading List:
    Link
    Pretty certain Asia had more then its fair share of internal strife, rebellions, and civil warfare.

    But yes, in the modern template for an otome game story, the background politics should make the story a lot different.
     
  12. ToastedRossi

    ToastedRossi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2017
    Messages:
    3,364
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Reading List:
    Link
    This should be the correct answer. The reason why so many Villainess novels turn out so poorly is because the writers don't know what they're doing. They just end up copying ideas from media they like and apply them without understanding how they affect the story. I think that one of the biggest problems with the genre is framing these books as based on Otome games in the first place. Now I don't have much understanding of these games, but the stories that I've read are extreme non-social when the social aspects should have been the biggest selling point. The stories that are based on old school shoujo end up being way better because they understand what the appeal is supposed to be.
     
  13. Fluffums

    Fluffums 【R-18 Researcher】【Seeker of Moe】

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    2,289
    Likes Received:
    3,521
    Reading List:
    Link
    It's not like it's impossible for a villainess to be involved in several scenarios of an otome game and be a good game, but I feel like very few players would be interested in a "rival" for their love interest unless they're into one form of NTR or another. For any dating sim, whether it's for men or women.

    The stereotypical villainess character used in the novels is definitely from old shoujo manga/anime though, without a doubt, as mentioned earlier.
     
    Ruzova and AliceShiki like this.
  14. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    24,257
    Likes Received:
    96,446
    Reading List:
    Link
    I can agree that a throwaway villainess is kinda nonsensical, but having her being a relevant part of the plot could lead to an interesting development.

    Like say, in a purely hypothetical example, you have a villainess that is engaged to the prince, and the prince is one of the capture targets... Then the heroine starts approaching the prince and like...

    Well, while you could make a throwaway bully villainess that will eventually get her engagement canceled and her family ruined and whatever... You could also have a villainess that starts talking to you like... "You sure you wanna do that? I mean... The king has the right to have concubines and stuff, but is that what you want for your life?" Which could lead to an interesting relationship where you're kind of friends and love rivals at the same time, with the caveat that she is the one who has an engagement, so she assumes by default that the heroine is actually vying for a concubine spot instead.

    This kind of thing could even lead to multiple endings where: the heroine becomes the wife and villainess loses the engagement; both end up getting married to the prince; heroine actually becomes the concubine with the villainess being the wife; secret yuri route with the villainess, abandoning the prince.

    This is just a random example I made on the spot. There sure is potential for adding a villainess to an otome game, though only if the devs want to actually explore it.
    They exist, though in a very small amount.
    Aye! Rika is a good example of a well-made villainess character~

    In some routes she is a pretty minor character, but in the routes more involved with the guy she likes... Well, she can be quite nasty~

    And well, she also adds quite a bit to the story too. By creating a unique environment around the capture target and making his route even more unique than it already is, and also by shedding a bit more light on the target's personality during one of the bad endings~

    I really like her! She was great for the game~
    Oh wow... Did you ever play an otome game or read a villainess novel? This is wrong in so many levels that I don't even know where to start. You don't even seem to know what the term "Villainess" mean...
    :aww::aww::aww::aww::aww::aww::aww::aww:
     
    IrregularPerson and UnGrave like this.
  15. pleasepickthisup

    pleasepickthisup ✨pretty✨

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    110
    Reading List:
    Link
    Oops I had a typo there, it was supposed to be

    "The only enemy is the targets themselves, who are usually brats who get annoyed at you literally just breathing"
     
  16. bkwusa

    bkwusa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Reading List:
    Link
    Villainess' have existed as long as stories have. The western Archetyp of villains was done by Shakespeare with the most famous villainess being Lady MacBeth.
     
  17. Xian Piete

    Xian Piete Author of many mediocre stories

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2017
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    227
    Reading List:
    Link
    I wrote one of those.
     
  18. IrregularPerson

    IrregularPerson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    299
    Reading List:
    Link
    I wrote a long spheal in reply to Bachingchung, but I accidentally deleted it. But the "villainess" I'm referring to is a prevalent cliche in fantasy-romance series. Where a girl would harass the protagonist in her romantic ventures and by the end of the series, face the consequence of: death, being exiled from her country, or perhaps being removed from the family register. For basically bullying.
    And as far as misogynistic men thinking that being single is a villaness attribute... that's not at all the case for this discussion.
    There is in fact a anthology series where they explore villainess scenarios. "Though I May Be a Villainess, I'll Show You I Can Obtain Happiness!"
    Except Lady MacBeth had that one moment where she "shed her womaness" so that she can commit murder. I'd call that another level of a man-eater, the monstrous kind. Shakespeare isn't entirely the best example as his tragedy's are more like comedy's, and vis versa. And the utilization of villains and monologues, probably date longer than that. But explicit having a pitted villain is more modern media. It's much like how Ragnarok was once seen as a good thing, yes a encompassing destruction, but also a the telltale of rebirth which is popular today.
     
    AliceShiki likes this.
  19. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,859
    Likes Received:
    4,352
    Reading List:
    Link
    To that they take existing short stories, there are plenty of them, and adapt them to manga.
    out of the first 2 volumes, only 1 story was original to it.