Discussion Awakening is Racist? RANT

When you make comments like "then you'll have to construct your sentences better" and call me a bigot, then yeah it is starting to get a tiny bit personal and aggressive.

 

Making me copy paste my conversation....ugh. So evil.

It wasn't a you worse than me argument. If it was, I'd keep harping on the fact that I found your arguments really offensive or something. Don't be melodramatic.

If you did not want to say that Japanese are racist to make fools(clearly alluding to me), then instead of using the word whole, why didn't you say some Japanese are racist? There would have been no misunderstandings, would there? Construct your sentences.... better.

Reason why I decided to get a tiny bit aggressive,

Do you think saying something like that isn't aggressive and rude at all? Comparing me to those.....brainless wonders who would say something so stupid that even a 10 year old wouldn't probably say isn't personal at all?

I used the word bigot cos of the of what you said, as a whole Japan stuff. Seeing that you said that was a misunderstanding, then I apologise. But please, like I said earlier, next time you want to talk about this stuff with someone else, say, "Some Japanese are racist." Not what you said. Lots of people would end up misunderstanding what you said and end up calling you a bigot.

 

Almost forgot.

@MadHatter I don't particularly mind you calling me a cretin. No biggie. There are worse names out there all.

 

That's what happen when people jump into an argument without reading what was posted before. Previously I quoted a link (this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan). Specially the part titled: Comment by U.N. special rapporteur on racism and xenophobia.

No, my intend was to make a comparative with other country "as a whole". Doesn't mean that I consider Japan to be THE most racist country, I meant as I wrote it, that they are one of the most. If there was a normal level of racism (not that such thing should exist), they are a level higher than normal.

See, that's what happen when people like you jump into a conversation without reading what was posted prior. You get sensitive and overreact, then things turn to shit and you get personal.

Anyways, you call me a bigot for saying Japanese to be racist...that's weird and wrong in so many way. Here I don't add "as a whole" or "some", at this point I assume you are smart enough to read between the lines without getting offended.

It was a figure of speech, I wouldn't call you that. Just wanted to make you feel what's the impact in resorting to insult.

 

I would just like to clarify that Madhatter sems to mostly be talking about institutionalized racism rather than the classic perception of hate on an individual to individual level that Jaded seems to have interpreted from his posts. Most of your guys initial argument seems to to be because of that misunderstanding.

 

I read that link before posting. So saying that I jumped in without reading is wrong. I was saying you were being melodramatic because you were sighing.

Gonna use a online dictionary here.
whole
Idioms
11.
as a whole, all things included orconsidered; altogether:
As a whole, the relocation seems to have beenbeneficial.
12.
on /upon the whole,

1. in view of all the circumstances; afterconsideration.
2. disregarding exceptions; in general:
   On the whole, the neighborhood is improving.

If you read this, you'll see that as a whole isn't really being used for comparison's. If you use the last definition, what you said would mean; in general Japan is racist. There's no comparing Japan with other countries in it, I'd there?

So neither I nor my intelligence can be blamed for interpreting what you really meant differently. Anyone would come to the same conclusion I did.

You did not answer what I had asked. In the beginning, when everything was going fine, you told me that I'm similar to those idiots who trivialise rape and claim it doesn't exist. Is this not personal or aggressive?

Yeah, I realised that. That argument is over. What's going on now....is the self justification and the blame game!! Hohoho.

 

I doubt you read the link before, because if you had, you wouldn't have went all nuclear and wrote all the things you did even to the point of getting personal.

I was talking about the country. I said "But as a whole, the Japanese are one of the most racist country in the world". You're the one who went out of your way and interpret that as me saying they were all racist.

It was just you, I don't see anyone else having an argument with me over that part.

You and your exaggeration and dramatization.

I wrote: "But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're like those people who say: "I never got raped so rape doesn't exist". That's just idiotic."

And if you want to point fingers at who started it, then your first post with "bullshit" and another one in CAPS is a culprit.

You use your "5 month living in Japan" as the base of what you're saying. Did it ever occur to you that you only saw what you wanted to see? But for people looking for work, trying to permanently live there, for them it's completely different? I'm not sure if I wrote it before, but my brother-in-law worked in Japan for 3 years in aviation and he attest that Japanese are racist and xenophobic. It's the little things really, about how you get treated. Bad services, getting ignore, the contempt. That's his personal experience, some of his colleagues got it worst. Doesn't mean that there weren't nice people among the Japanese. If you go there for vacation then you should be fine and wont see much of those bad behavior. But it's a bit different for those looking to live there.

 

Are you saying that the idiom "as a whole" is somehow incompatible with the concept of making a comparison therefore it cannot be used in a statement making a relative comparison? Thats such a bizarre and obviously irrational assertion that i have to assume that either you didn't state your point clearly enough or im just dumb. Also I have to disagree with you because I kind of feel like the majority of people would have correctly interpreted the statement in his post.

rape is almost always a bad comparison to use in an argument that you want to remain civil but the underlying argument being made is that using personal anecdotal experience as proof of a general truth is incredibly flawed on a fundamental level.

It really still seems like the same argument though...

 

You doubt that I read it. Trying to convince you otherwise is pointless.

So you're saying that the trigger was me saying that the facts that you were saying is Bullshit? Seriously? You kept harping on the fact that I wasn't interpreting stuff correctly and getting oversensitive, but couldn't realise that all I was trying to say that what you were saying was completely wrong(at least according to me)? You need to improve on you're interpretation skills as well then.

I'm too poor to live in a country like Japan for 5 months. Rent is too high, living in a hotel for that long would be crazy(if you doubt that poor you can just search NuF where I've often cried about how buying YenPress LN's is too expensive for me). I lived with my cousin who works there. While he did face a little harassment, it was very very little. If your brothet in law faces it on a regular basis, then my condolences. He need a better work environment.

Seeing that @Leachinator , a third party whose neutral feels that I read what you wrote wrongly, I'll concede. I already apologised before. He also mentioned that using the rape comparison in a argument is almost always a mistake. It tends to piss people off. Don't really see you trying to accept that though. You'd be perfectly alright with people comparing you to those you despise?

You say that I jumped to conclusions and assumed that you're saying that all Japanese are racists. I think you did the same thing with me here though didn't you? I had admitted that racism exists in Japan upto a certain degree in my very first post. I never said that it does not exist. But you jumped on me believing that I was saying that it does not exist at all. At least that's how it seems to me when you say I'm like a high schooler/person who says bullying/rape does not exist, simply because I did not experience it. Am I wrong? You keep saying stuff like, read properly, this is what happens when someone jumps into conversations, etc but never noted a fact that I've said repeatedly even until this point.

Most people did not continue this topic with you, is what you said. Most people pretty much chose to not continue with this thread actually. We even had some people trying to end it. Which was why I wanted to take it away and use PM's instead. But you never replied, even though I did not use any 'personal' or 'aggressive' language in those messages

 

Nah, just poking fun at you and you're "you started it" and "you're worst than me" arguments so far.

Another asinine comment from you, not surprise at this point . First I have to "learn how to construct sentences" and now "improve on (my) interpretation skills". Any other recommendation?

If I couldn't realize what you were trying to say, maybe it's because you didn't express your point correctly. And maybe, just maybe you should "learn how to construct sentences" better. Ha!

My example remain true. You say from your personal experience there's little racism in Japan, while others would object to that statement and say little is an euphemism. What you're doing is downplaying a situation that is even recognize by the United Nations to be problematic. So I'm gonna repeat what I said to you the first time: "If you don't see or live the racism then it's all good for you". You are perhaps lucky, and it's all fine.

*Edit:

No, I said no one argue with me over my statement of "as a whole, the Japanese are one of the most racist country in the world" and interpreted that as saying every Japanese are racist. Here, you're the only person who misinterpreted what I wrote and challenged me for it. Don't try to twist the circumstances.

Also, I didn't read your PM and will not read it. There's no way I'm going to move this discussion into private with someone who blatantly acknowledge of being aggressive. This never ends well. Here at least, because of the other readers, we still keep a minimum of civilities.

***
Some more lecture:

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/japans-xenophobia-problem/

http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/is-japan-really-racist

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21620252-troubling-rise-xenophobic-vitriol-spin-and-substance

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tackle-embedded-racism-chokes-japan/

http://apjjf.org/-The-Asahi-Shimbun-Culture-Research-Center-/2932/article.html

*Note that the links provided are more about people with foreign origin who lived in Japan or those who are trying to establish themselves there.

***

And back on the subject of this thread, this is a good read:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...al/media-complicit-in-normalizing-xenophobia/

 

I agree with you that this is a problem of nurture generally over nature. Children do instinctively recognize those who take care of them and attach subtle feelings of liking to those who look like those who take care of them and have helped them. If I have bad experiences with someone of a specific race who I've never had experience with before, that experience will color my opinion of that race until seen otherwise. Even after having good experiences it will still color your view in a subconscious way (if that moment is one that sticks in your memory at least) and there isn't any thing that you can do.

Furthermore, In my experience and from what I understand about humans, differences do off-put others in subtle ways until a person adjusts in some way to these differences. Certain foods that other's take for granted, one might find strange and disturbing. Activities that some find barbaric, others find to be more natural, etc.

I find coffee to be a horrible substance and I actually lose respect for those who drink it because of this dislike. It also wasn't helped by the fact that the sibling I have the least respect for was the one who started drinking coffee at the youngest age in an attempt to be more "adult." So to me coffee drinkers are in fact more juvenile in my mind. It's like cigarettes in a way to me, just because a lot of people used it and still do so, doesn't make it a good activity and it's an activity .

But what I'm saying is that past experience, culture and even history/experience of family can and will color your view. And humanity is hardwired such that we can't forcibly change these opinions short of going out of one's way to change them, and let's be honest, most people have no desire to do so.


Blah blah blah, I just realized I don't give a damn really. Read the strike through if you want. It's not really something I care to talk about/argue or try to develop a cohesive series of thoughts about

 

Wow... this continue in such a grand way...

Why can't we just accept that we are basically just a bunch of racist xenophobic self-justifying prick who always think that we are better than anyone else. This is human nature, however, twisted that is. We should 'afraid' of something foreign. Our ancestors who didn't fear 'foreign' died out from food poisoning, killed by wild animals, get burned, or get killed by other human.
In History, we see all kind of Racist Xenophobe action in every culture. Summerians hate Akkadians, Akkadians hate Arameans, Arameans hate Phoenician, Phoenician hate Greeks, Greeks hate everyone especially Persian, Carthage hate Rome, Rome hate and be hated by everyone. Bla bla bla... There is a reason why most culture have dichotomy of us and them, of Barbar and Civilized Greek, of Walhaz and German, of Gens Barbaricum and Gens Civilis, of English and Danes, of colonial European and uncivilized African, of First and Third Colony, of Earth and Extrasolar Colony, of Cyberenhanced and Bioenhanced, of Transhumanist and Cishumanist, of Tea-Drinker and Coffee-Drinker, of Dog-Person and Cat-Person, of JP WN and CN WN...

It is just, the extent of how we manifested our racist xenophobic nature are differed from one person to another. This is influenced by our upbringing, education, past experience, etc...

I don't see why people so much deny that themselves are hypocrites, egoists, ignorants, racist-xenophobics, etc. Isn't accepting our weakness is a step so that we can 'fix' ourself into a better person?

 

Haha. Noticing that you still haven't talked about the whether using rape comparisons is wrong or not. And noticed that you still haven't accepted that you misinterpreted what I said. Convenient. And how amazingly thick skinned. I've pretty much replied to everything you've said, but you on the other hand simply chose to answer what you find easier to reply too.

Another aninine suggestion by me? You have a memory problem I guess? The suggestion that I need understand sentences better and interpret or read stuff properly or something similar was something that had come from you originally. I'm just throwing it back at you nicely lol. I guess you consider you're own suggestions asinine.

"If I couldn't realize what you were trying to say, maybe it's because you didn't express your point correctly."
Wow. This is what you couldn't understand?

What was so difficult about how the sentence was constructed that you couldn't understand? I'll do my best to improve so that you can find it easier to understand .

I'm twisting the circumstances? I apologised for the insult I used, accepted that I might have made a mistake understanding what you said in the beginning and moved on to where I found you being problematic. You on the other hand, are completely refusing to reply to thosr problematic parts.

You won't talk privately with a person who blatantly acknowledged that he was aggressive. I think the fact that I accepted the fact that I had been aggressive and apologised is better than you who refuses to accept his own faults, let alone apologise. Also, you've constantly kept an aggressive tone until this point. Why keep such a self righteous and holier than thou attitude?

Wonder how many question you'll run away from this time...

 

Ha! This thread is so funny the weeaboos are calling China xenophobic, when Japan is one of the most xenophobic countries in the world, don't believe me? Check out non-mainstream Jvloggers.

 

Surely I could have came up with a better analogy, but that one served it's purpose. Or are you just nit-picking here because of a comment Leachinator made about my analogy, qualifying it to be "bad". He was right, I could have use a better one.

I'll repeat myself again, if you didn't see much racism during your short "5 month" in Japan, doesn't mean racism is benign over there. I provided you several links, that differ with your personal opinion.

I didn't misinterpreted what you said. I made this statement "White people are treated nicely by Japanese, like something desirable. But for other race with darker skin tone in particular it's different. They get a completely different kind of look. The people most subject to racism in Japan are the Korean, Chinese, Black, Brazilian and Vietnamese."

Then you replied: "Err...I'm an Indian. A South Indian to be precise. Not black. Not white. But my skin colour is closer to Black really. Extremely dark brown. That pretty much invalidates your different skin colour gets treated differently argument."

Which I took as meaning that you as a brown skin Indian didn't suffer any racism during your time in Japan. You even said it in your first post. What you did was using your meager personal experience of "5 month" in Japan to devalue and minimize the situation.

- Durrh, I didn't see a lot of that, it's irrelevant --> that's you.

Was I wrong in saying you purposely misinterpreted what I said? You even acknowledge that fact. So what are you trying to throw back to me? Why don't you provide a quote of what I said, just to refresh my memory. I've said so many things, no idea what you refer to exactly.

That was -sarcasm-.

Why don't you humor me and talk about your experience in Japan.

Yes you are twisting the circumstance.

You said and I quote: "Most people did not continue this topic with you, is what you said" --> no I never said that.

Then you added: "Most people pretty much chose to not continue with this thread actually." --> this here is a very idiotic comment by the way, no offence intended. It's a forum, people live in different country, in different time zone. Just because no one reply for 30 minutes doesn't mean the topic is dead and that "everyone" have chose to withdraw.

Followed by: "We even had some people trying to end it" --> again, that's your personal interpretation. If you have nothing more to say then you can back away yourself. It's that simple. No need trying to make it look like you have people backing you and sharing your view by making ludicrous used of the word "WE" in your statement. Tsss...

You see, when someone call me a "bigot" and acknowledge to being purposely aggressive, for sure my tone will change. Read my reply toward you at first, and read your first comment and how you started your argument with me. I believe I was more compose than you deserved.

 

Back on topic, I'm actually reading MTL of the novel. I don't see any extreme elements of racism than what I saw in 9HTM. Yes, many of the characters are lecherous and blackhearted, but it's a story set in Japan and those characters are the antagonists. The MC's family, love interests and circle of friends are mostly Japanese as well.

Those who are considering dropping the series would be heartened to know that the story veers off to much black-ops action and love scenes later; allusions to national pride are pretty much just mere footnotes.

The author and the MC did not go around sneering that these evildoers are representatives of the entire country or race like that other novel. The history lesson chapter was more on nationalism and gives a basis for the story's cartoonish monsters arc story created by the antagonists. I equate it to something a Japanese would write, y'know, like a monster born from the radioactive fallout caused by the atomic bombs.

 

Funny lad, you meant what Arcturus said? That's your reason for all the "WE" and "Most people"...lol. He stated his opinion, does that mean just because he doesn't want the discussion to keep going everyone else has to STFU? Until the thread is lock, anyone has the right to intervene.

So let's sum what did your personal intervention actually contributed to this thread...almost nothing to the discussion. Basically what you said was that you lived in Japan for -5 month- and wasn't subjected to any form of racism and that's why racism in Japan is insignificant -- flawed logic from the beginning. All that base on your -5 month- experience. And all the rest was just you trolling me over some nonsense that just happen to be in your head.

Jeez, you're grasping at straws now. If people want to intervene, just let them. What's the point of this shenanigans? If you have nothing more to add to the thread, just back off. Your personal experience of "5 month" was dully noted. Anything else?

If you want to end it, it's pretty simple. JUST END IT. Or are you one of those people "obsess" with having the last word? So that's why you've been raving and trolling since the beginning with little to no contribution to this thread.

So you felt offended by what I said, and by that I mean having misinterpreted what you said to be "racism doesn't exist" and that made you angry and also made you entitle to be aggressive? No need for excuses, you were aggressive from your first message here. It just escalated rapidly in your case over a dumb reason. If you don't want to be polite and chose to be explicitly belligerent, you don't need to give me futile excuses to justify yourself.

My analogy might have been poor, but the basic point was pertinent. I'm gonna quote what Leachinator said:

"rape is almost always a bad comparison to use in an argument that you want to remain civil but the underlying argument being made is that using personal anecdotal experience as proof of a general truth is incredibly flawed on a fundamental level."

White and Europeans are treated better in Japan. Doesn't mean they are not subjected to racism, just to a lesser degree compare to other ethnic group. Foreigners all receive unwarranted attention, some even qualify this as if they were animals in a zoo. On the other hand, some foreigners actually bask in the light of all those gaze and it made them felt appreciated.

Because obviously you are trolling. Look at you, what have you contributed to the thread except your 'meager 5 month" of experience and being offended by something I said due to YOUR misinterpretation.

If asked and you have nothing interesting to say, then I guess not much then. Could have been anything really.

See now there's new information. This is the first time you actually talk about your relative point of view. But anyhow, some people live in places for a long time and still are totally oblivious about what's happening around them. I'm gonna re-post some links I posted earlier, pretty sure you didn't read it. Have the nagging feeling you never read anything before intervening.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/japans-xenophobia-problem/

http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/is-japan-really-racist

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21620252-troubling-rise-xenophobic-vitriol-spin-and-substance

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tackle-embedded-racism-chokes-japan/

http://apjjf.org/-The-Asahi-Shimbun-Culture-Research-Center-/2932/article.html

And some new link:

http://jgss.daishodai.ac.jp/research/monographs/jgssm5/jgssm5_15.pdf

There's also a book written by Debito Arudou for anyone interested -- Embedded Racism: Japan's Visible Minorities and Racial Discrimination
http://www.debito.org/embeddedracism.html

I already told you the reason I didn't want to move my argument with you in private. You were getting personal and aggressive. Your behavior showed that you were highly sensitive over this subject. From my personal experience, when talking with someone like that, without the peer judgement factor, things would just go sour. Not that it didn't go wrong here in the forum, but like I said, here at least we keep a minimum of civility.

Also, if you feel that your action have derailed the purpose of the thread then do what is right, end the conversation. Don't just say "I want you to stop" then you keep going on and on. That's kind of hypocritical.

Well it was the truth. All this started because of your misinterpretation of something I said.

Wut??? Let me resume just so we're clear.

Your comment: "The suggestion that I need understand sentences better and interpret or read stuff properly or something similar was something that had come from you originally."

Which I ask for I quote, because I have no idea where that came from. I don't remember saying you need to understand better or interpret or read stuff properly or something similar". I acknowledge the "read stuff" might have to do with a comment I made about you not reading a link I provided perhaps. Or maybe it was the comment I made about "You need to learn to read instead of making asinine suggestion. See what I did here? How do you feel now?". But that was sarcasm (pretty obvious with the following phrases), not to take in the first degree. I was making fun of your asinine comment "then you'll have to construct your sentences better." And since it was all due to your misinterpretation, hence the sarcasm about you needing to learn to read. It lost its flavor when having to explain the sarcasm...

But the "understand better or interpret" part, I have no idea where you took that from. Actually, that's something you said yourself since you're the one who suggested that I should "improve on (my) interpretation skills". And now you're blaming me for something you said???

And then the quote you finally give me to justify yourself: "All that thanks to your contribution. Your effort in derailing the thread is appreciated. And don't waste your time PMing me, if you're too ashamed to post something for others to see, just don't waste your time posting it."

In my head I'm swearing "#@!!%?, what's wrong with this guy".

I was civil and even polite with you at first, even though your first intervention warranted the contrary. But then you started to make personal attacks and use insult. At that point, my tone changed, and I'm simply less considerate toward you.

Since you acknowledge this to be your misunderstanding and even find your behavior to be childish, why do you keep going on... You could have just drop this long ago...

 

Might as well add a final point in regards to the 'asian' racism department.

Unlike in the European countries, and America, the racism you would actually see in Japan, China, etc, is not based on skin color, but if you are a national or not. This is where the term xenophobe is actually used. In Japan, the term used is gaijin. There is even a lot of manga and anime that actually do specify that there is sometimes a negative connotation to half bloods and foreigners that choose to live in the country; in that specific case, some are looked on positively, others look at it negatively (just using Japan as a simple example). This can be noted by those that actually come from abroad to live in the respective countries or go to school there. If you don't believe me, find the people themselves and you will find that a lot of people have different experiences; many of which do post about it in youtube, blogs and other forms of media.

No, it is not everywhere, nor is it everyone, but people do find themselves on that situation of being outsiders and are accosted due to it. To completely ignore that this occurs is a very ignorant way of thinking when situations actually do show that it happens (even on a small and situational scale). It is also a great fallacy to assume that everyone thinks that way as well.

Humans are humans. We tend to be quite selfish and territorial, but also show empathy and consideration of others. It is within our nature to be both vindictive and kind. Society is the same, stop assuming things and understand that there isn't some singular truth to the situation. The moment you blind yourself to the perception and experiences of others, is the same moment that you are just as bad as the 'ignorant and foolish people' that you think you are arguing with.

P.S.
Arrogance breeds Ignorance, and Ignorance breeds even greater Arrogance.

 

All those asian countries hate each other, which is annoying due for third parties since we don't like to read nationalistic based racism.