Discussion Better way to write tragedies?

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by AardwarkThe2nd, Nov 28, 2017.

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So?

  1. The good guy protagonist gets fucked by every evil bastard

    9 vote(s)
    32.1%
  2. The evil bastard protagonist fucks over every good antagonist

    19 vote(s)
    67.9%
  1. AardwarkThe2nd

    AardwarkThe2nd (R-18 writer) Aardwark, the king of aardvarks!

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    If you recheck the first post, I edited in two examples.

    For 'The good guy protagonist gets fucked by every evil bastard': Xian Ni. The first tragic xianxia on this sub, this isn't simply a edgy slaughterfest. The MC descends from a naive child to a indifferent slaughter god as tragedy upon tragedy strikes him. The world is ruthless, there are no resources so even humans are refined into pills, the legacies aren't of mighty demons but demonic insects and the proper response to any attacks is complete clan extermination.

    For 'The evil bastard protagonist fucks over every good antagonist': Inside-the-cave-of-obscenity. The 'protagonist' is a slime without thought and feelings, and we follow him raping and murdering through a kingdom which is careless due to long term peace. The protagonist does not have feelings or personality to sympathize with, so we helplessly watch him screw over ever beauty and murder every guy that meets him.
     
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  2. Beer_Kitty

    Beer_Kitty Just a very very drunk kitty that likes beer

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    Its not really tragic?
    For reasons
    1 is the basic revenge story which the MC gets bullied by the bad guys. In the end he wins over them.
    2 is from a perspective of the bad guys. Its either he wins over the good guys or gets defeated by them.

    Tragic story is when the MC NEVER WINS. And by the end he dies alone or gets everything he builds up to just be destroyed by his enemies.
     
  3. Guradu Gilgida

    Guradu Gilgida 【Gentleman】【Tembikar Demon】

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    WMW is not a tragedy. It has no tragedy in it's genre because Leylin never lost anything important (he only has 2 important things anyway, his life and A.I. Chip-sama).

    If it's funny, it's not a tragedy, but comedy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2017
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  4. N1gh7R4v3n

    N1gh7R4v3n Bounty Hunter for skittles

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    bad guy loses to good guy. Not only because of the fact that "good guys always win" If the evil MC acnoledges this fact yet still tries to go through with his plans, It shows the willpower of the evil mc and devotion. and as time goes on you can begin to write the evil mc's willpower and effort to dwindle until he just cant take it anymore
     
  5. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    Not sure about "tragic", but the first one seems more like a "tragedy" in the classical sense.
    Tragedies often involve irony such as the main character being the cause of his own downfall, in that sense Xian Ni fits the bill to some degree since;
    Wang Lin did indirectly cause the death of his family even if the villains was the ones directly responsible
    Although I feel it handled the aftermath poorly.

    Overall I don't like either example.
     
  6. gary0044187

    gary0044187 Well-Known Member

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    Personally thought Xian ni was edgelord bs. I should re-read the beginning just to drop it sooner.

    The best tragedy though was the tragedy of Darth plagueis the wise. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2017
  7. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    I think more people should read the literary definition of tragedy. I think these people are largely talking about tragedies as events, as opposed to tragedy as a character/plot arc of a story. Furthermore, I'm not sure if these stories really achieve a good catharsis, which I feel is really essential to tragedy in all mediums.
     
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  8. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    I assume you mean empathize, in which case since when do we need to empathize with a story for it to be good? Anyways, the advantage of a good novel is generally its wide cast of characters. Especially for these incredibly long WNs. Even if they come and go, it's rare for the best works to only have a few well-developed characters.
     
  9. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    Honestly not sure if I got the literary definition correct either, but I always thought of good tragedies as something along the lines of The Count of Monte Cristo.
     
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  10. Bright_Lucky_Star

    Bright_Lucky_Star [Previously Known as OrdinaryUser] The Blessed One

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    I prefer to read the first
     
  11. Rhorho

    Rhorho Well-Known Member

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    it is a tragedy for anybody else except the mc and those who he deemed not an enemy
     
  12. gary0044187

    gary0044187 Well-Known Member

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    I brought up the quote from sw3 On purpose because the quote about darth plagues the wise is literally the definition of tragedy. It is a story that handles the tragic events of a hero's life in a dgnified way.

    I chose tragic on purpose. It's meaning fits perfectly here even though I am almost defining the word while using it. The word means causing or characterized by extreme sorrow or distress. These stories revolve around the tragic hero, the person whose flaw, called the tragic flaw, begets the sorrow and distress they suffer.

    Plagueis has hubris that he thinks he may have finally solved the sith's greatest desire, power over life and death. However, in his hubris he doesn't see that he planted the seed in his own demise by raising an apprentice.

    To truly be a tragedy though the tale must be handled in a dignified way. In this sense, 2/3 of what you will see on novel updates marked as tragedy will fail to live up to this standard.

    A Chinese tale that is full of tragedy that I would mention would be Romance of the Three Kingdoms. So many tragic heroes in that one. In a way water margin is the same, ish.
     
  13. AardwarkThe2nd

    AardwarkThe2nd (R-18 writer) Aardwark, the king of aardvarks!

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    Tragedy, branch of drama that treats in a serious and dignified style the sorrowful or terrible events encountered or caused by a heroic individual. By extension the term may be applied to other literaryworks, such as the novel.
     

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  14. RenarDuSud

    RenarDuSud Active Member

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    The two types of stories you described are not tragedies. They are just masochistic and sadistic plots.
     
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  15. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    hmmm.png for me there 2 type of tragedy
    ~ on middle of story which can cause great change to character
    ~ ending like chinese old legend a pair of butterfly~
    how about the whole story is tragedy?
    I can only judge it after da story reach conclusion which related to how it end~
    as for tragic thing on early story tbh until I can related to character which usually after story progress to certain point I can't feel tragedy at all~

    it similar to NTR~ how I can feel it make me rage if da story already about stealing without premise da stealing is really hurt? 19637.png
     
  16. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Aspect of Destruction』

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    I think that those aren't tragedies...

    Like... I have a hard time explaining it, but... A tragedy must feel... It needs to give a certain feeling, and those types of novels definitely don't.

    ... Wow, this is way too much of a vague explanation... Oh well.
     
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  17. youseiki

    youseiki 『Loves Glasses』

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    Fate Zero is the best tragic Novel you can read or better watch it now
    or let's go to the popular one like Game of Thrones which I haven't seen yet
    or the extreme ones from Shakespeare another one which I haven't seen
     
  18. Mizura

    Mizura Well-Known Member

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    ... I feel like my understanding of what constitutes 'tragedy' may need reworking.
    I was not aware that Xianxias (especially ones where the protagonist wins in the end) and Hentais qualified as tragedies.

    I thought tragedies were stories like Deep Love - Ayu no Monogatari, where...
    The protagonist dies of AIDS after prostituting herself to raise money to cure this sick boy.
     
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  19. igiveup

    igiveup a good boy

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    That's called stupid decision making, and really a natural consequence of her actions in the first place. What was she expecting too happen? The apple too not fall from the tree?

    At least, I struggle too see how that's more 'tragic' than the xianxia cases, where an MC's family going back many generations get tortured and killed for revenge.
     
  20. Mizura

    Mizura Well-Known Member

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    So a young girl who went down the wrong path but decided to help someone for once, and ended up dying in the process, is just getting what she deserved, and a Xianxia MC who murders millions of people for what's often mere selfish gain in power is the one who is tragic?

    Okay.