Discussion Chinese Cultivation Novels: A Review

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by MangoGuy, May 20, 2020.

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After reading the review, do you agree with it?

  1. Yes

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  2. Yes, but there is more to it (comment)

    3 vote(s)
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  3. No (comment)

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  1. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    Hi everyone! MangoGuy here!

    Abstract: A defining line of difference between CN cultivation literature and traditional literature is the focus on character establishment and development, as CN cultivations novels often suffer from Model heroes, Clan-based backstories, and Breakthrough-based character development. However, at the same time, what CN cultivation novels gain by giving up on the above is a strong dose of Action, Eastern Mysticism, and a Fast Food plot. The aim is to showcase how these two styles of writing have traded off various elements to attract target audience.

    Of late, I have started to realize why writing CN cultivation novels requires a skillset which is significantly different from other mainstream literature. I will be presenting my reasoning for the same below, and will also follow up with why I feel these specific reasons allow for the tremendous yet admittedly niche popularity of CN cultivation novels.

    Before going further, lets talk about traditional literature. Traditional literature which has an aim of telling a story has a significant focus on the characters and their developments. For example, when you want to write a book/script, you first start off with the protagonist. Who is the protagonist? What are the quirks of the protagonist? What are the motivations of the protagonist? What are the contradictions which exist in the protagonist, and from there, you begin to build a back story for the protagonist. You then follow this up with the other main characters, and finally, based on the initial concept, you begin to develop a plot which takes into account all of the realistic tendencies of the characters. To develop characters, you will have to follow the proper procedure of ironing out the contradictions in a step by step manner, so that towards a later point, the character becomes a clear and consistent character whose future moves can be clearly predicted.

    Now, when you come to CN, this entire charade of building a character profile and a back story to explain the personality and developing it is completely missing! The most common tool used to bypass these are:

    1) The Model Hero: The weakest character of all is the model hero. He has loads of determination and will power and thirst for power, with no clear reason as to why an adolescent male has these qualities! On the contrary, if you look at a manga like Monster, each and every reason behind why the antagonist of the series is as evil and manipulative as he is, is described. Along with the reasons listed below, this reason is one of the strongest cause for the terrible execution of romance in novels. With a male lead who is already perfect, the female lead is often type cast to complement this lead, and often times, counter act the only flaw of the lead viz. excessive violence. Whenever this plotline is preferred, the usual ending is that either the partner is killed, or she is changed. Because in the end, the usual characterization of the law of jungle always persists with a paramount comparison between pursuit of strength and power with enlightenment towards the working of the universe.

    2) The backstory of the clan: Often times in CN cultivation novels, the backstory of the MC is given as him being originally a member of so and so clan and then, him getting lost etc. This tool changes from series to series, but the basic principle is the same: The reason why the protagonist is so high and mighty is the monstrous family(ies) that merely birthed him. This means that whenever the protagonist displays exemplary courage or other such features, a convenient reasoning behind it is given as the inner strength coming from a mysterious deep part of him which is later shown to be connected to his birth clan. Of course, often in reincarnation novels, this clan thingy is replaced with a McGuffin. They are equally criminal, because their initial creation and characterization is often limited to a 3 chapter backstory coming towards the preclimax of the series. My theory regarding the reasoning for this backstory-of-clan-directly-impacting-protagonist is the entire chaebol culture of China and Korea, which reaffirms classical imperialism and the stratification of the society.

    3) Breakthroughs: Breakthroughs are fundamentally excellent concepts. They act as plot devices which let the reader know and understand how far the protagonist has come from the starting, and how the scenario of the series has currently changed. Keeping aside the often comical plot armour surrounding the level of MC vs level of bad guy (again attributed to a mysterious backstory which does more to explain his power rather than his self), I want to discuss how breakthroughs are used as convenient plot tools to make characters go through instant character development.
    (cont.) In a 1000+ chapter series with regular updates, it makes sense that the writer cannot give all characters due importance. In fact, more often than not, there is zero character development involved! However, there is actually some character development. By character development, I am referring to the process of how through arc(s), the way a character thinks or responds to certain situations changes. During breakthroughs, almost conveniently, it is often mentioned how "the mental state" of the character has progressed. What this implies is that the original 20 chapter development has been squeezed into one chapter, and as a result, a naive little tsundere girl is now a mature killing machine.

    Now, moving ahead from the lackluster character design/development, we can look at the more common features of CN cultivation novels which are readily accessible to all: High repetition of plot points/arc stereotypes/character stereotypes, High word count generic description of characters (especially female), terribly abrupt endings to the series, and power scales drinking tequila whenever they want.

    Alright then, enough bashing. Why are CN cultivation novles so popular? If all my listings above are correct, there is really no reason for people to like these series, and like them for so long and religiously!

    Let's ask ourselves a question: Is understanding the subtle depths of a character easy for an average reader? And is it even a priority for an average reader?

    Absolutely not! Whatever might be the inner character for a person and how it develops, the very act that entertains the reader are the actions of the character. People don't like to reader the TJSS style exposition anymore. The CN cultivation genre exists for a unique group of people with similar tastes in multiple things, and I will list them below.

    1) Action: Undeniably the most important reason, there is hardly anything more satisfying than reading a gory action sequence which once again reaffirms the tenets of how being good will still let you be powerful. The Ideal Hero archetype which was a negative for plot development and immersion, actually acts as a conduit. Readers want to read about mythical beings who are the classic Davids, both in terms of the sculptures and the myths. We may not personally identify with the flawless protagonist, but it is a character that we ourselves yearn to be in. Even if the character is essentially shallow and one-dimensional, the only existing dimension gets tremendous exposure and thus, readers with affinity to that one trait are endlessly attracted, thus explaining the niche yet vociferous fan bases.

    2) Eastern Mysticism: Ok, there is no kidding here. Every teenager and young adult and pretty much all humans love the concept of fantasy and magic. And in CN cultivation novels, you are getting these with proper real world parallels from various time lines, thus creating a seamless illusion in which we can all explore the fantasy. The intermixing of genuine Daoism and other sects of Chinese philosophy with some Western magic is a fatally attractive thing. For example, the classic Indian tales of Ramayana and Mahabharata can be compared to CN cultivation novels, in that they ooze this factual elements and mythological factoids which create a realistic fantasy. The presence of an actual Mt.Tai and Shaolin and Dalai Lama and such help in the reaffirmation of the fantasy, thus working better than Western attempts.

    3) Fast Food Plot: Earlier, I talked about how breakthroughs and clan backgrounds ruin the character development aspect of the novel. Consider this. You thus have about 1000+ chapters of primarily action, with very minimal screenspace given to character development. What this means is that you can keep on reading for thousands of chapters without even distinguishing between various characters, simply enjoying the actions and interactions. The overlying plot is irrelevant, due to the length and pace of writing. Thus, a reader after a tired day at work can immediately zoom into action and enjoy the next few chapters, without worrying about remembering which character is what. Many times when I read a series, I don't even both remembering the character names. I remember them by their traits, and this serves the purpose of telling me who is on which side. This also helps me to unclutter my brain as I follow 30 series on a daily basis (previously). Thus, CN cultivation novels can be likened to the violent and gory PvP action combat videogames, where the actual plot is only there to attract some oldtimers who are any how going to bash the game. This is further strengthened by how techniques and special attacks have chunni names, and are often ridiculous.

    Through this review, I have tried to walk through CN cultivation novels seem to work, and explain why writing them is potentially very polarizing to writing a standard piece of literature. The motivation behind this review is analyzing my own reading habits, and understanding why over time, the number of CN cultivations I have been reading/following have steadily declined.

    I hope that this review was helpful to at least some of the readers who are wondering how to write a CN cultivation style novel over at ScribbleHub.

    Peace and Mangoes

    PS: This is not supposed to be taken as some academic guide or source for information. The above review has focused predominantly on the character development aspect of the difference between the two styles. Constructive discussions should follow in this thread, as I hardly believe that the list in the above is exhaustive.
     
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  2. canaria23

    canaria23 『  』

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    Heavens~
     
  3. Donuts

    Donuts Endless surge of emotions

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    Fast Food plot is the cancer of cn novel that destroy a countless good cn novel imo

    P.S i’ve never see a good ending in these xuanhuan xian xia novel at all as well as romance they’re so baddddd
     
  4. The Hamster Overlord

    The Hamster Overlord Mad scientist/Revered wizard/Alleged antichrist

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  5. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    Those looking for a TL;DR, just go through the abstract.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  6. 0000000

    0000000 I B SMILING!

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    To be honest, I read to destress and don't really give a shit about the plot, because everything boils down to "you kill *or insert horrible things done* my *insert MC companion*, time to die!"/ "道友请留步 halt your steps my friend, then MC starts his kill fest." /*any other generic plot jade beauty shit*. Everything is unique and everything is the same, the authors write for the word count and soon, they can don't bother to create new works when Tencent fucks them in all directions.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  7. Chronos Bee

    Chronos Bee Descendant of Sloth

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    Those are not CN cultivation literature, these novels you are describing are Web novels written for the internet age with emphasis on word counts and instant gratification with fast food plot, which you already mentioned. They get shit out fast and constantly everyday or every other day, and even authors themselves dont know how their story will end, which explains the abrupt endings.

    If you want real CN "cultivation literature", please read some of Jin Yong works, like Legend of the Condor Heroes.
     
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  8. InvincibleDespair

    InvincibleDespair Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Donuts, post: 5601948, member: 70331"
    P.S i’ve never see a good ending in these xuanhuan xian xia novel at all as well as romance they’re so baddddd[/QUOTE]
    Exactly
     
  9. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    I agree with your opinion on what constitutes CN cultivation literature. However, you cannot be as selective as that. Because even those originals were also initially serialized in newspapers and such. So, in the internet age as well, the serialization has continued but in a different format. His writing might be qualitatively superior or original, but the fundamental is the same. Of course, modern works can be considered to be heavily inspired from him, but again... The fundamental doesn't change. At most, you can consider them as subcultures among CN cultivation lit.
     
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  10. Deleted member 155674

    Deleted member 155674 Guest

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    While I wouldn't exactly say that I agree but I really like how you explained that :blobokhand:
    Now, I just want to raise a point since you based your review on the basis of cultivation novels being fantasy, you spoke about chinese cultivation novel and also included korean cultivation ones at some point and you classified them as fantasy, but the thing is fantasy differs from fiction and I believe that cultivation novels should be classified as fiction or rather science-fiction to be precise rather than fantasy, now, let me explain:
    You see when I read cultivation novels for the first time, I also believed that they are fantasy but till some days ago because of a certain thread here on NUF, I realized something and that is, my interpretation and view about cultivation novels might be wrong, so I made a search and guess what, it was wrong, because I came to see cultivation novels as science-fiction rather than fantasy and that changed a whole lot of concepts on how I view them now.
    Fantasy genre got its elements (isekai genre is a sub genre of fantasy usually, obviously :blobsweat:), fantasy is built on imaginary concepts and ideas that are used as is and got no relation to reality and those elements are not meant to be studied or understood by our knowledge, for example, fantasy is usually related to magic, elves, dragons and such, and those elements can't be related to the real world or based on real life science or tech, best example since it is well known (I think) is 'Harry Potter movies', all of the stuff going on there can't be explained by real world means, surely they explained spells and some 'mechanisms' but none of them are based on real life basis, if what I mean by 'can't be related to or based on real life' still isn't clear then think of the 'Lord of rings trilogy' and explain that world to me according to real life means, best possible explanation to give would be "it is a movie", you can't find a start in real life, on which to make that whole idea a reality or part of reality at some point :blobsweat_2:
    Now, let us speak of cultivation novels, those stories are based on chinese or korean elements, some sort of practice/knowledge like taoism and medecine like acupuncture (and of course other things...) and then comes the cultivation which is if we try to put into simple terms, is a process through which the body changes state from one to another under special blood and chi (stamina/energy) circulation method and of course some drugs (if it isn't clear, this is science, and not just a single field but lots of them, including advanced knowledge in human biology including genes, logic, and many more) and of course martial arts (punching, kicking, moving fast, etc..), true, the methods might sound strange and they speak of spiritual stones and what not, but if they are smart enough and got all that info then the nature being a special environment capable of producing such things is also possible to accept as somesort of scientific development :hmm:
    Now, based on that (tried to make my point as short as I can and generalize as much as possible, but end up writing too much anyway :blobsweat_2:), I developed a whole new understanding about cultivation novels and if I am to write a cultivation novel, I can't simply treat the plot the same as if I am to write a fantasy story/novel, of course I can add elements but since the base is sci-fi then the fantasy added is also going to gain a sci-fi feel to it :hmm:
    ps: just o say but sci-fi doesn't just include robots, nano machines, space... and if you want to verify, you can search "Fantasy vs Fiction" or "Fantasy vs Sci-fi"
     
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  11. GDLiZy

    GDLiZy Wise Deepsea Mermaid

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  12. Chronos Bee

    Chronos Bee Descendant of Sloth

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    Theres nothing wrong with serialization, in fact most forms of comics/manga/novels out there are like that. Manga? Weekly or Monthly magazines. Comics? Marvel or Dc volumes. Japanese light novels? They also have a deadline to write the next volume (unless the author is immensely popular and has sway over the publisher). The "fundamental" difference here is the "daily" and "word count" part. No other form of media entertainment other than chinese web novels have this ridiculous form of monetization. Imagine the film industry making movies based on run-time and as fast as possible instead of focusing on story/character/music/...

    Look at korean webtoon, they are also the product of the digital age, in fact they are written to be read on phones with the long strip from top to bottom, but they are no where near as bad as chinese web novels. Its because they dont get paid based on how many "pages" they have in a chapter.
     
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  13. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    I got to say...that is a unique way at looking at things. That is a neat little argument for classifying the entire cultivation and its relevant elements under science fiction. However, science fiction exists under a notion that whatever kind of exaggerated and ridiculous claims are made, some type of scientific basis is provided, no matter how flimsy. In the sense that, imagine there is a scientific effect which is as yet unproven, they assume it to be proved and then go ahead and weave a plot.

    However, in the case of cultivation, the core concepts of Daoism are philosophical. I don't want to get into whether the theory is true or feasible or not. Rather, lets look at the definition of science fiction, and then compare it to the general cultivation novel. The general cultivation novel has mythical creatures set in a world where a mystic power related to Daoism is practiced ordinarily. So, we have a world set with a "fantasy" power (due to the current lack of scientific precursor) and we also have classic fantasy creatures and troupes. I feel the only place where we are clashing is at whether Daoism can be considered as pseudoscience, and by extension, science fiction or not.

    Acupuncture is considered to be a pseudoscience. Considering that Daoism is also pseudoscience, I look up the definition of pseudoscience. "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method."

    What does this give me? In the best case scenario, it is still NOT based on scientific method, meaning that there is no scientific precursor.

    Let me explain this. Time travel, wormholes, terrifying AI, cyborgs... These are accepted elements of science fiction. Why? it is because theoretically, they have a scientific precursor from which the final product can be achieved, except it is not materially feasible. I cannot say the same for daoism, because there is no scientific precursor in modern medicine nor physics. The aether theory was debunked, and even assuming that the Higgs-Boson energy fields theory can be considered as a manifestation of mana/qi, it is very inconceivable.

    So I gotta say... I am going to stick with fantasy over science fiction. Of course, exceptions like Skyfire Avenue exist, where the two worlds co-exist.
     
  14. All The Wrong Novels

    All The Wrong Novels Well-Known Member

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    There's plenty of times throughout history where character driven storytelling has existed in popular media. Keeping track of characters isn't a difficult thing, its something we naturally do and like doing, and in the hands of a good writer it will feel effortless because the character leave such a deep impression on you. You can also develop characters in the middle of action, and it absolutely doesn't have to stall the pacing, show a character reacting to a situation in an unexpected way to show how they're unique, show them reacting to similar situations differently later to show how they've grown.

    I would also strongly push against the notion that people who read Cultivation novels don't care about characters. There's a reason that expectations and reactions often play a big role in so many action scenes. Its not enough to just hear that a character is using a huge powerful move, but that other characters don't expect they'll be able to, and there's a satisfaction in seeing the other characters who underestimated the protagonist finally come to this realization. I guarantee that if someone wrote just non-stop action without any kind of human response, no one would read it and it would be the dullest thing ever. People misattribute what they like about writing all the time, but all the popular authors have some form of character interaction going on that makes them interesting to read.

    There's a lot of stock scenes that these webnovels rely on and do very well, because they're tried and true ways to generate a strong emotional response in the readers. There's nothing wrong with using these, but there's also ways of additional character development and complexity to these scenes, and some authors do accomplish this at times. For one example, in Douluo Dalu there's a pretty standard training arc where the MC has to go to some evil city to force himself to get stronger, but the author adds the twist of having him meet a character from the opposite faction who doesn't recognize him, and he has to end up cooperating with her. This adds an additional element of interest because now the MC has the additional limitation of having to hide his identity and not use any of his abilities that would be recognizable, and we get to see a different set of characters interacting together, and creates more curiosity and interest in how this will affect their future interactions when they're opponents.

    I've only read through a few series so far, but I've seen plenty of examples of where authors are able to handle these scenes better than average, but rarely are the able to consistently do so in a way that builds and develops throughout the whole series. And there's a good reason for this, and that's good writing is really damn hard and takes time, which is why there are two major english fantasy series that have been stalled for years, because their authors have built up so much and making sure they don't drop any threads and keep things moving in an interesting way is really hard to do. A lot of webnovels I've read inevitably have arcs where the main character goes off on his own, or starts up in an entirely different area with a new cast of characters, and these tend to repeat the same basic stock situations rather than continue to develop somewhere larger.

    Its not impossible to do this in the serialized format, but it does make it more difficult, the better series I've read have felt like the author had a clear idea of where the story was going, and even though they use stock scenes as the basic driver of events, it was clear the they were able to keep track of the bigger developments at the same time. I think there's still a lot of areas that could be improved, if they gave more attention to side characters and different kinds of interactions, there would be potential for much more fulfilling stories. I guarantee if some author ever managed to do all these things well even within the common tropes of the genre, it would become incredibly popular. But again, even just mastering the basic stock scenes and pulling them off well is a challenge, so it might be a while before we ever see a major work that ever shakes up the genre, but its happened plenty of times in past writing.
     
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  15. Dr_H_16

    Dr_H_16 Well-Known Member

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    Good writing is hard, so it's fine to put this minimum-quality work. What a great answer.

    By the way, I never ever see Duolou Dalu as cultivation novel, even though I admit they're pretty similar.
     
  16. All The Wrong Novels

    All The Wrong Novels Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I said anywhere that it was fine, in fact I was trying to say the exact opposite, that people shouldn't expect the current quality is the only possible quality, and that it wouldn't be possible for authors to do better. I was just trying to say why its not common, and even if there are authors who want to do better, time restrictions might prevent them from writing as well as they might. There are ways people might overcome these restrictions, and my hope is that someone will eventually, just that its not as simple as snapping their fingers and having better writing suddenly appear.

    I've only starting reading webnovels recently, so I might be confused about where the various genre boundaries lie. But I think the point I was trying to make with this example is applicable to more standard cultivation novels.
     
  17. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    You brought up an interesting point which I chose not to include.

    The most popular novels among CN cultivation are those which have some features of my so called traditional elements in addition to action and the general set up. ZTJ or any other popular novel which has managed to get sizeable traction do it because they are more than just action. Thus, in the end, how popular a novel is can be technically based on how well the writer has somehow posted traditional elements into the mix, along with the action based fast food plot.
     
  18. Yamatohime

    Yamatohime Well-Known Member

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    The main problem of cultivation novels is lack of character cultivation. They are freaking the same kind of idiot as at the start of the novel. Just stronger.
     
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  19. GDLiZy

    GDLiZy Wise Deepsea Mermaid

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    I see this an extreme waste of potential. After all, Cultivation novel is THE perfect setting for philosophical discussion with an already built-in system of Breakthrough as well as Dao Comprehension. They also have the detached from the worldly affair as the core of their cultivation theme.
     
  20. MangoGuy

    MangoGuy Rambling Mango

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    I feel that the breakthroughs are necessarily poor things for character development/philosophical discussion, for the reasons stated above.
     
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