Discussion Cultural Problems in Novels That Readers Don't Understand

Honestly, as a reader (and translator) of Asian novels, I find it pretty annoying when I read a review of a story that I thought was pretty decent and the review just shits on the main character or something that happened in the first few chapters.

Disclaimer: Everything below is purely subjective, but I'm trying to provide insight on how authors think and cultural issues that make readers think that a novel is good/bad.

After reading tons of those reviews and reflecting, I realized that most "haters" stem from not understanding the cultural context or behavior of the original language that it was written in. Let me start with Japanese since I'm a Japanese translator. The thing that people hate the most is probably "beta MCs". Let's not argue on what people hate the most, but focus on what makes the MC "beta". First of all, not wanting to get involved in any situation is such an Asian thing. (It's not limited to Japanese only, Chinese culture is like that as well.) This stems from several things, the most important that I personally believe is that they're afraid of the consequences. For example, read this article. People will literally watch you as you get harassed. You've probably also heard of this infamous Chinese thing where people just watch the kid get run over by a car and no one helps. Not wanting to get into any situation is a cultural problem in Asian culture that will probably never get fixed, but this is one reason why MCs always feel super passive or seem "beta".

Another complaint I usually see it that the MC is "too normal". Yeah it's a novel and I get that the MC is supposed to be special, but I feel that people need to understand how Japanese society works. The current education system does not support any type of free thought (in my opinion) and honestly is just a structure to produce more slaves for companies. It's just a factory to produce workers. This also affects how people think. People actually think normal is good and many people are too afraid to take risks because it would affect their stability in life. In Japan, if you fail, you're basically an outcast in society. It's different from how Western cultures work. I've seen people fail business startups in America and their friends and family still support them, but in Japan (and Asia in general), if you fail, everyone cuts of relationships with you. I've seen it happen through my relatives in China and it's pretty bad. That's why there's this concept of "normal is good". Stability first.

There are people who complain about "power fantasies" and the overflow of them, but I find it normal and understand the reason why they're popular. Imagine yourself going from after doing some nice unpaid overtime, you feel like life is shit and you're tired. Reading "power fantasy" novels puts the reader in the main character's shoes and gives them a sense of release from their daily life. The reader probably too knows that the novel is probably just garbage, but the reason they're still so popular in Japan despite the saturation of them is due to being overworked and release from the shackles of society. Also why isekai is still damn popular still in Japan. This applies to students too as they are under insane pressure (and why Japanese student's suicide rate is higher than other developed countries). Isekai and power fantasies are a way to escape the harsh reality that faces them. This is similar in China and Korea as well since high school/college entrance exams put HUGE pressure on kids.

Now you guys are probably tired of reading of my Japanese rants. Let's move on to Chinese novels now. One topic I want to touch on is probably about "rape" and "virginity". Holy shit are readers unwilling to learn about the cultural context of these things. In historical Chinese times, your virginity was almost something sacred and even if you were engaged to the prince of whatever damn country you were in, if you were raped by anyone, you're marrying that piece of shit. Now readers going to be like: women's rights! Oh please, it was pretty similar in Western society in historical times too. Your virginity was the most important in Western culture as well for who knows how long. I hate those people who have this double standard. This "sacredness" of your virginity also extends to modern-day. You'll be surprised by the amount of people who hadn't had sex a single time before the day of their marriage. There are even "Group Licentiousness" laws that make it so having sex with more than one woman is illegal and no no no swinging (unless you wanna be arrested). I'm just trying to make a point that you have to understand how important one had to be "pure" in ancient times because there was no such thing as gender equality at that time. It's like someone asking where are the guns in a historical setting world. You can't bring in something that didn't exist at that time period.

I have tons of more things that I want to rant about, but it's already long enough. Give me your thoughts and I might make another thread on other themes in the future if the response is positive. No hate, please. These are just my personal thoughts.

 

After reading the article above, it certainly change my perspective of Japan more and more, I understand that the country is Work first Family second, there is such thing as Social Death, where hierachy is so important that if you fuck up to a senior, you die. Death by overwork is also seen as a honorable thing and the term gaijins is still getting thrown around when I visit the more rural parts in that country. And yes, the country is somewhat derogatory to their own women and that #metoo and women's right just doesn't exist. Heck, the story of a female reporter who reported that she was raped by a higher up ended up got hate mails from other females, telling her that it is shameful to report being raped.

The whole China is cold-blooded and uncaring is not new, I had heard stories from my paramedic friends who actually said that if you ended up saving someone in China you had to deal with his/her medical bills, to which they will make you go bankrupt. As for the girl getting run over, apparently the death sentence is more welcoming than spending a fortune for running over somebody.

And the virgin thing still persist today, for the record. This is coming from my aunt's story apparently, her daughter who ended up married abroad with a chinese family, got divorced immediately instantly after they know she had a relationship before. The amount of insults from whore to bla bla bla and even extended to scolding my aunt and her family and us as well. Because we cannot teach the girl not to fuck around with boys. Which is equally funny, because my aunt actually overheard some aunties out there saying things like, "locking the girls at home (to perserve virginity) while letting the boys go out (to fuck other girls)" and things like their boys whether they make a profit or loss in terms of the age of the partner. If younger and a virgin, profit. Older and/or non-virgin, a total fucking loss. They even equate non-virgin girls as second-hand automobiles that should had been scrapped, god blessed if the girl has more than one ex.

 

I do understand why some Asian novels feature such concepts which many readers find unpalatable (doesn't mean I'm gonna read about a beta/rapist MC anytime soon). But if xianxia is a reflection of Chinese society, I can't comprehend why xianxia MCs are so damn meddlesome.

 

Well, things like this seem to happen so, virginity still matter (so, be creative and try to get something out of it if you plan to just give it away just for the sake of losing it) despite whatever people might say

 

Because it made them felt all powerful to meddle with someone and faceslapping people. In reality, most people don't dare to play the hero and if they do, bless them to not fail, because shits like you trying to defend a bullied kid ends up yourself getting bullied by the bullies and bullied kid is common af.

 

I knew all of the context you explained except the part about cutting people off for failing in a startup. But I still hate what I hate. And historical context does not make something acceptable. This applies to slavery, the confederation, rape, witch hunts, lynchings, war crimes and the Holocaust. I'm sure there are many other examples. Their historical context does not make them acceptable topics for web novels. I have only read one novel with rape that I have not hated and yet to read such a novel with regards to slavery. At best, I am ambivalent about novels like Shield Hero with "slaves" that are neither treated as nor referred to as such. But any half-hearted attempt to portray the above topics is BS. They are controversial for a reason.

PS: I did not address the beta criticism because I personally disagree with people complaining about beta MCs myself. However, there is an issue when you try to justify the MC being beta. A novel should be good despite the different culture.

 

I know, but the OP pointed out cultural/historical contexts, and how they influence writing. OP also said that minding one's own business held true for CN society as well. But most CN MCs don't conform to that norm. So, IMO all this doesn't completely add up.

Edit: Same with beta. JP protags tend to be pretty inconsistent with regards to their "passivity" as the poster below me has elucidated. And their "wishy-washy" behaviour: surely that is not a feature of JP culture?

 

every comment is so long

I for one am not someone who will want to get myself into anything I find remotely troublesome, hence I kind of relate of JP protagonists.

not wanting to get into trouble is one thing, but that's not a reason for me disliking JPMC. It's their mish-mash personality that makes me feel aversion towards such novels. Sometimes, they don't want to get into trouble, but the next moment, the can't wait to save a female character. Some of their actions may also be hard to justify to me(cant think of any examples at the moment), which makes me think of them as somewhat shallow and hence my dislike.

I'm chinese, and female, but doesn't mean I like female protagonist novels all the time. this wont be an issue of difference in culture because I'm Chinese and living in a (largely) Chinese environment.
I hate to say this, but I wouldn't be comfortable reaching out to help someone even if we are acquaintances. it's just this awkward part of me.

I'm confused by my own comment so I'm gonna read this thread to get my mind straight...

edit: I finally read everything above my comment, and want to say this,
yes, i like isekai because the MC is cool, and OP and all, and so occasionally I still read those that don't have harems.
I'm fine with Japanese novels(and some Chinese novels) since I mostly take them with a pinch of salt. I only dislike it if the protagonist end up being someone with no fixed personality or when I find them overly(to the point of being inhuman) kind and forgiving. and I agree that all these issues stem from the fact that I cant relate at all. Have a harem? I'm more for monogamy. Forgiveness? I'm petty.

again, i don't know what I'm typing and if someone can decipher my comment, thanks

 

That's that, but reviews aren't usually written to objectively describe a novel. They are written to give their impression of personal experience for other readers. When people review an eastern work using a western value, the review will still be getting read by other potential western reader; readers who just want to get an idea if the work they're interested in would be worth reading.

Of course, people won't agree to most reviews. But there's just so many things out there to read, you'd want some kind of filter to pick something. When you know that you hate reading about your definition of beta MC, you can give a glance at how many people agree with the review saying how the MC is a beta, and you can easily decide to skip the work.

Imagine, you're reading a top voted review saying "The review by @guy is wrong! The romance in this novel didn't start out in a rape act!". Then you read the novel, and it does start out with a rape scene. By your definition of rape scene anyway. Then you came out reading that novel and you start disbeliefing all the reviews ever written and you stop reading novels anymore because they all probably suck anyway.

And, uh... that's all from me. Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

EDIT : didn't know "guy" is an actual username. If you're reading this, I'm sorry that I pinged you!"

 

That is called schizophrenic writing. Basically when the author cannot decide whether to make their wish fulfilment conform to social norms or be a non-loser version of themselves in the artificial world they make. Not calling the authors and their readers a bunch of wanking loser-lost cause, because I am doing the same thing in writing porno and reading all these beta shits.

Like I said earlier, they want to play hero, so in the novel, they can do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they would do IRL, and that is to NOT MYOB.

 

...I can summarize to one word for the beta JPMC, Horniness. Because they want to bone the girl, so they act like a hero. If you change the girl to something like a lizardman, old frail dude or something the MC find it hard to fuck, you will find the MC taking out popcorn while watching the carnage happening.

Then comes the weirdass issue of them NOT boning their harem, it is at this shit I just drop the fucking work. FUCK YOU BETA BASTARD, DON'T HOARD THE GIRLS IF YOU ARE NOT PLANNING A RELATIONSHIP GODDAMMIT.

 

Goddamn i really hate these type of hypocrisy, When they said "I just want to enjoy carefree life and stay out of any kind trouble", but anything they did is anything but staying out of trouble.

 

Yup, then there are times when the BS and say things like "troubles are finding me, I have no choice."

In some context yes, but every arc with you smacking onto conspiracies, apocalyptic rituals and some other shitfucks, i am just smh-ing to the point I myself becomes the takecopter from doraemon

 

I get your point, but what I want to say is if, as you said, writing doesn't conform to social norms in the cases u mentioned, why should concepts such as beta, rapist MC, etc be excused just bcuz they are apparently determined by social context? I am not talking about character motivations, just saying that imagination (and good writing) can transcend all that.
And beta is not just being passive but also being wishy washy. Surely, JP culture isn't wishy washy?

Are authors really so tied down by their culture? Or is it simply the inability to create better characters or try something different? I suspect it's both, and that the "haters" do have a point.

 

Because the target market? Say, if you write something that has absolutely no link to their norm, or maybe even an antithesis, you will find yourself with no one buying your work.

The wishy washy part is something rather deeply rooted in the society because apparently it makes the character feel more real with the whole internal conflict with what you think is right versus what society perceived as right. Yes, Japan culture is not wishy washy, because the entire society expects you to think for the better of the society and not yourself, you are a mindless POS whose job is to go do work and perhaps die there. Even the young primie minister got flamed for taking paternal leaves ffs. So wishy washy give the audience a feel that they can afford to think for themselves, which is a luxury IRL btw.

As for rapist MALE MC, it can sometimes be praised as an achievement ffs.

Also, you expecting writers who are forced by their editors and contracts to churn as many works to be constantly using their brain? Even George RR Martin needs time to properly filter the story and make it streamline, while the companies just want to have merchandises and stories that people can relate on shelves. Kinda the reason why JP has their titles so fuck up.

 

I seriously doubt that not writing a non-beta/edgy, non-isekai will result in poor reception. But I do agree that writing beta MCs is easier, esp. when u already hv a template. And being wishy washy doesn't hv much to do with internal conflict, I believe. See, the 2nd part of your reply is exactly what I'm talking about. The hate is directed at poorly written, formulaic stories/charas; it's not solely a product of the readers' ignorance of the native culture of the writers.

P.S. Read my edited reply to the prev. post.
P.P.S. Even I read an oft-denounced edgy JPN, but the reason I like it is cuz the MC's a rounded, relatable chara. The traits associated with "beta" are less of a problem than the the poorly constructed, inconsistent MCs who just happen to be beta.
P.P.P.S. If I'm not making sense, it's cuz I am sleepy. Bye.

 

Just like the usual xianxia, templates. Basically all the stories we read these days come from a factory line. And as for the authors being tied down by their culture? Pure unadulterated BS, they can spend time to study other cultures and try to recreate it in their works, but why waste precious time in doing so when you can literally just churn the usual shit and your target market will chow it down hook line and sinker. And the whole inability to create a brand new character, possibly, as the whole market is saturated with Char-expy and shitfuck homicidal/ genocidal edgelords and people seem to like reading OP/ edgelords or both because their lives are too mundane to be proper.

Well I am just venting my frustration, possibly because of work, I envy you.

 

Exactly.
P.S. Don't envy me. I've been carrying my work home (a lot of it, at that) these days. On 2nd thought, tmw is a holiday, so maybe u r right to envy me.

 

a few days ago, I was reading a cn novel.
mc hacked the system to play a game, so he wanted to stay lowkey to not alert the GMs.
then he goddamn became red on the internet

 

To me, it feel like to many people want the MC to act like someone from their social group, or an idealized member of it, and hate anyone who obviously is not. Way to many complaints are simply "he did not do what I would have, so he is an idiot" when boiled down to their core.

That or they are just looking for porn feeling a story needs porn scenes to be good (from my experience, see the Anita Blake novel series, is has the opposite effect).

It is very similar in western society TODAY, anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

Yes in the major urban areas there tends to be more progress, but most smaller and/or religious communities still hold to the same "girl must be a virgin" and "blame the victim" mentality that they have for centuries.