LCD Death Mage

Discussion in 'Latest Chapter Discussion' started by lygarx, May 21, 2017.

  1. spycho357

    spycho357 Well-Known Member

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    I want to say it was ch. 100 or so when you talked about the effects of the dual system. It stated that rank wasn't the definitive scale of strength, a warrior who can beat a rank 8 earth dragon would struggle against and possibly be killed by a rank 5 wyvern who attacks from the sky. Having access to the job changing room is a huge boon to vida's races. Leveling and job promotion leads to higher attribute values and rank ups often involve a significant trigger along your evolution path. a mage would need comprehension of magic and mana, a swordsman would need comprehension of blade combat, it's ironic that most require the individual to put their life on the line in battle to gain the comprehension necessary to advance. Or in this case have a strong bond to a guider to gain advantages. I looked and saw Van has taken several guider jobs which all combined into a single path, he still has 1 guider job to take and one of the named jobs is based on a demon that whispers in people's ears and leads them astray, so that is probably an advanced guider job. Either way, Van is heading down a path pestilence, disease, death, war, and abominations, all the while trying his best to recreate the creature comforts of earth for his people. Truly a polarizing circumstance.
     
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  2. Baldingere

    Baldingere Roseau pensant

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    Having a rank and a job gives you more potential. Ghouls haven't lived up to their potential because those inside the boundary range live inside a dungeon that their guardian god manages and are a small race due to fertility problems. The ones outside the mountain range are unable to leave their villages to fight stronger foes, because they are recognised as monsters.
    Human adventures move from place to place and seek out stronger and stronger dungons. They get stronger that way. This is not accessible to ghouls outside the mountain range. The recorded history notes we read come either from the adventurer/mage guild's archiv, that doesn't know about behing the mountain range, or Luciliano's notes. He might have asked the ghoul clan, but if they never recorded their own history then higher classes could have existed, and thus the rumours?
    Did Isla have a job? I thought vampires of evil god factions lost the ability to have jobs.

    Mid-to-large cities is unclear. Moski was a middle-sized city, but didn't have any B-ranks. Except the dude who guarded a merchant to repay his favor, but he is not affiliated to the city.

    If we're going to argue about who used sharp wording first, you said:
    "Yes, because there aren't any other gods opposed to Alda running around free. Right.
    Why don't you just admit that it's fanon? You have absolutely no evidence while I have been making the same claim the entire time with no stretching of goals. The god of ranks has never been stated to be isolated like the other three. Is it? Maybe, but you have no proof of that. You merely assume it, which is fanon." And it is the answer you gave to his comment that referenced the chapter where the rank god being with the others is said.

    Gizania and Myuze have combat experience, but he pointed out that in their areas they fight low-level foes and don't have excessively dangerous fights that would allow them to level up quickly. I don't remember if it was Myuze or Giania, but one of them was a city guard. She only had to fight during training or when small monsters came. She didn't dive into dungeons.
    There are big cultural differences between Vida's races, precisely because of their diversity.

    What do you mean, avoids the job-change room then takes a job at rank 8?? That's not what you said before and what he was answering to! You said it's not possible to be rank 8 with a crafting job. You never said to exclude all other jobs?

    I doubt anyone answered you with the intent to offend you. It's a thread full of debates. I don't think my answer was rude either.
     
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  3. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    You just ignored the entire part about Zadiris, a rank 10, being only comparable to a B rank. This pretty clearly indicates at least some rank Bs can punch at the 8-9 weight class at least. And yes, Morksi, a small city did have a former B rank adventurer. Normally it probably wouldn't have someone that strong, but it's not a big city anyway.

    As I said before, I don't wish to argue anymore. Why don't we just say it's down to a matter of interpretation and call it a day? There's plenty of what I consider evidence supporting my position and the two or more of you surely believe the same. Honestly? I think the details are often so vague or inconsistent that there isn't a definite right answer anyway.
     
  4. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    I need to go over the rest of todays posts in the thread, but dear god this part jumps out at me :
    Why would @Baldingere need to address it? That is not what the part you are referring to says. It is not a valid or intelligent point, and as such does not need to be addressed. Though bringing it up again does show how you are not debating in good faith. As the logic fail is to massive to not be deliberate.

    The part you are referring to starts with an IF statement. What you are doing is the same as if A then B therefore C with nothing to go from B to C. As a reminder for those of reading who a weak at logic, if you want to use an "if A then B" argument in your reasoning you need to ensure that there are no dependencies on A that still hold when applied to C.

    The statement you are referring to is If Zardis gives herself a massive handicap, then she is equivalent to a Rank B. You are then saying that all rank 10's are equivalent to a rank B since Zadris is when she handicaps herself. In order for it to be valid for what you are failing to argue then the example would need to hold for a non-handicapped Zadris, which it does not, and everyone can clearly see that it does not, so why would we need to bother.

    You rudely accused people of making up their own fanon then demanded proof to admit you were wrong, and maybe I missed it but after being told exactly where the evidence you were wrong is I did not see an admission of your error from you, but now you are deliberately doing exactly what you accused other of and making stuff up to support you errors, rather then admitting you were wrong and talking out of your A.
     
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  5. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    Because he quoted me talking about Zadiris only to say that I was making things up. I consider this disingenuous. I showed some pretty clear evidence, but it was ignored, presumably because he either didn't actually read what I was saying or didn't have an immediate response, but just 'knew' that I was wrong and decided to not respond to that.

    Also, I'm curious. What abilities does Zadiris have that do not relate to magic and are applicable in combat at that point in the story? I honestly can't think of anything except that she secretes poison from her claws, but since she has no hand to hand combat skills at all I don't see how this is in any way useful, especially given that it's only a rank 2 skill. I'm honestly trying hard to think if I forgot anything, but nothing springs to mind. What do you expect her to do in a fight that doesn't relate to magic?

    By the way, I don't appreciate your strawman arguments. I did not say "all rank 10s are equal to B ranks." I said B rank seems to cover a range of enemies from 7-9~ or so, most likely depending on the competence of the adventurer in question and any kind of affinity advantage.

    And of course you didn't see an admission of error from me given that I don't think I'm wrong. Remember, you never actually showed any evidence that the god of Ranks was actually hiding or anything. And yes, the god of Ranks is a thing, as evidenced here. So I think it's only natural that I would not decide that I'm wrong given that you never actually countered my argument. Honestly, it actually leads into something that I just said: The information on this is very vague. The God of Ranks was never stated to be in isolation or outside it, meaning it's merely a matter of interpretation of what few scraps of information we have. Thus, it is literally fanon to definitively state anything about where it is or what it's doing because there is no canon answer to this.

    I have another question. Why are you so pissy about this? I have tried twice now to drop this. The last time I even tried really hard to be as civil as possible. I said it was down to a matter of interpretation given the inconsistent and lacking information, meaning I was deciding not to continue calling you wrong so that you could just have an ounce of grace and say "Sure, let's agree to disagree." But you don't want to do that. You want to tell me I'm talking out of my ass. Why are you being so hostile and aggressive about this?
     
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  6. Baldingere

    Baldingere Roseau pensant

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    I read what you wrote and spend 15 minutes answering it. I didn't say you made things up, except for the part where you twisted uour earlier statement about rank 8 with a crafting job.
    I merely gave back my or @sjmcc13's arguments about why your arguments do not convince me. I didn't avoid answering the part about Zadiris with malicious intent, I simply do not recall other comparisons between adventurer ranks and monster ranks well enough to answer it. Because I vaguely remember that Borkus was around rank 10 when Van found him and yet an A rank adventurer would have been necessary to win over him. But as I remember vaguely and not clearly, I didn't contradict you. It's that simple. I didn't ask you why you ignored my whole comment to only answer the part about Moski's size.

    I think it's a bit hypocritical to say that others are looking for a fight, after having been the first to declare others overwhelmingly hostile, just because in a discussion thread, they discussed your statements with you...
    Also, you seem to forget you were the one who corrected somebody's post about the god of rank, to tell him he is wrong because Guduranis created the god of ranks. Yet when others talk back, you react like your opinion is being denied. It's an exchange of ideas. It's not a fight. You can keep your opinion. And others can express their own.
     
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  7. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    The Borkus example is kind of awkward because the author later rewrote how that whole thing works, adding in the Broken tag. At the time of introduction, Borkus was actually only about as strong as the Noble Orc Van had killed not too long before both because of the missing arm and because undead are just weaker right after being raised. The story then notes that the likely outcome would be that while Borkus could kill Van, he might actually lose to said noble orc because Borkus just has better burst damage, which Van struggled with back then. It's not until the attack on Talosheim that he seems to match what he could do in life, which was when he was indeed an A ranked adventurer. Remember, when he was fighting Riley there, he actually took a reasonably significant injury, meaning he wasn't that much stronger.

    But setting that aside, yes, you're also pointing out something that should be said here: Not all creatures at the same Rank have the same fighting ability. Vigaro is pretty clearly significantly stronger than Zadiris even though they're the same rank, which sucks because I rather like Zadiris and think Vigaro is super boring. And then you have Quinn, who in a direct fight with no allies is only a bit stronger than a B ranked adventurer despite being something like rank 12. I think the implication here is that Zadiris is a rather weak rank 10? Even as I say that I find it an odd conclusion to reach because I think we're supposed to assume all of Van's friends kick ass.

    I'm going to ignore your second paragraph. It comes across as very passive aggressive to me, so there is no response I can make that isn't being defensive. And I detect that same rudeness and condescension, so I will continue trying not to respond in kind.
     
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  8. Baldingere

    Baldingere Roseau pensant

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    I'm sorry if my words make you feel attacked, but that might come from your own triggers, because it was not my intent, and I was not being condescending.
    What I'm puzzled about is that this was a debate, maybe a heated one but aren't they all on this thread? And then you said people were hostile and later rude. I was especially confused because you said "every time I say something you don't like". There was no like or dislike, @sjmcc13 corrected stuff you said that was wrong. And other people also gave their own point of views.
    Basically what I'm trying to say is that no one is against you. This is not a fight. I mean, don't we spend time on this forum as a hobby? I'm here to wind out, and argue in good fun, and I don't see why we would get upset at each other. I don't feel mad at you because you think the rank shows Vida's races power level.
    And I'm not looking down on you either. I simply noticed that you first corrected somebody, but once it sparked discussion demanded proof from others, and then when that proof was given, perceived the other person as rude for talking plainly. There's an inbalance between your expectations from others and your own behavior. And I'm still not mad at you, or trying to be passive-aggressive. I'm pointing that out because you asked why we insist on being hostile. And the thing is, we're not. You perceive it that way, but that's not something I can change. Again, I don't want to hurt your feelings, I want to explain how I see this.

    Good night folks.
     
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  9. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    I missed saying this earlier, but yes, Isla did have a job. Quite a few, including one about her executioner's sword iirc. She was a pretty active agent for Ternecia so her oddly low Rank and skills stand out. I suppose it's the author really not grasping scale again.

    Well, someone did just tell me I was talking out of my ass and then claimed I was making things up while using strawman arguments, which I consider hostile by default. And you did say "You mean he is quite frank about every detail you got wrong?
    He doesn't seem to be stopping you from saying your point of view, he only corrects your false assumptions
    In quite the methodic way too"

    Which comes across as condescending to me by just acting like of course I'm wrong when I'm pretty sure I actually have the better argument. But you know what? I'll retract part of what I said. Sjmcc13 is definitely being rude, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you that you are at least not intending to be rude.

    Oh, and just for the sake of clarity, Rank 8 with only a single creation type Job is just a really bizarre combination, leading to a hyperbolic statement. Because nothing that can hold a Job is born at Rank 8, right? One type of Majin starts at 7 while the other two are at 6 and I can't remember if Noble Vampires start at 6 or 7. Meanwhile, Purebreed Vampires are all the way up at rank 13. So they would either just take a creation oriented job and then proceed to ignore it while they just fought up an entire Rank increase, or they would have reached Rank 8 and then taken the job. Or even more unlikely, a different race of Vidakid (god I wish there was a decent way to shorten that) started at like Rank 2-4 and went through up upwards of six rank changes with no Job or only a creation Job? These scenarios seem so unlikely to me that I concluded no one would ever actually do this. Not literally impossible, but so unlikely that you can reasonably assume that it's probably never happened.
     
  10. Baldingere

    Baldingere Roseau pensant

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    A lot of Vidakids live a long time. Elves in Alda's society do take crafting or musician jobs, complete them and later take up fighting jobs. Same thing for Vidakids, they could complete a crafting job then start fighting and complete a fightjng job and increase ranks. Many of these races have enough time to do both.
    Taking one crafting job would lead to either taking an apprentice level crafting job, which should stay available even if you build your career on fighting, or if the person has a hobby, like I dunno, woodcarving? They could get the job without the apprentice one. Like Van likes cooking, he leveled up the skill, bingo he can become a cook without going through apprenticeship. And Arachnees can probably always get seamstress jobs.
    A crafting job doesn't stop from taking other jobs, you just need to complete it. And completing an apprentice level is easy, so having one crafting job and being rank 8 is like being an apprentice baker and completing many fighting jobs to become a spearmaster.
     
  11. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    Do you really need this spelled out, isn't is painfully obvious.
    Zadris is not just her magic but that is a passage referencing just her ability with magic.

    Taken from the wiki for her status at that same period in the story, look at what is in bold. Though since this does not include stat numbers, you need to remember that her physical stats, like strength and endurance, are all superior to a normal wizard as well :
    Pure spellcaster is often a back line glass cannon, not always but often. Zadris is not.

    But we already have confirmation, very early in the series in a easily referenced section, that a rank 8 is equivalent to an A-class individual. You just cherry picked a example that seems to support your position, but really does not because there are constraints on the information that need to be ignored for that support to hold.
    Maybe I got the conclusion wrong, because quite frankly all I cared about was demonstrating the level of fail in the example you provided. But you were still using extremely faulty and dishonest logic relying on intentionally misinterpreting a snipper of text to support you own faulty beliefs of the setting, rather then admit you were wrong.

    Also, pointing out the critical flaw in reasoning is not a strawman. You are still drawing a conclusion from evidence that does not support that evidence. Misinterpreting it to create a flaw would be a straw man. Simplifying to demonstrate and point out that flaw in the reasoning and that the evidence provided does not support the conclusion, which is what I was attempting to do, is not a strawman. IT also does not demonstrate your conclusion is false which is the point of a straw man.

    You are the one who demanded evidence for someone's position a couple pages ago, once you do that you need to provide your own evidence, and ensure that it is valid. you provided invalid evidence outside the context of the evidence, which is extremely important in text BTW, which does not actually support the conclusion you are trying to make.

    Yes we did demonstrate that you are wrong. You just seem to be to stubborn of prideful to admit it, and ate moving goal posts or stretching things to try and not admit you are wrong.
    But since you are having problems with basic inferences, you referenced something that instead of supporting your position just puts the final nail in its coffin.

    • The Skill system is completely isolated from outside interference (the chapter I referenced previously).
    • Big G's added ranks by injecting the God of Ranks into the system (the F-ing chapter you just referenced)
    • Therefore the God of Ranks is isolated from the outside, otherwise he would no longer be a part of, or able to manipulate, the system since the entire thing is isolated, and we know that the GoR is interacting with the system, see Zadris and the princess curse
     
  12. X07Zero

    X07Zero Well-Known Member

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    1. Ricklent create a system, Job god, Status god, and Skill god
    2. DK take advantage of an opening that Ricklent had left and added Rank god to the system
    3. Ricky doesn't want anyone not just DK even himself to mess with it anymore given full authority over the system to those 3 gods and then isolated them and system

    this is what we know

    as we see how reincarnation system work, the system has been managed by god and angels, it not like the god and angel is the system themself

    This made me wonder if the rank god gets isolated with them?

    The one who isolates the system is Ricklent and Zuruwarn, they isolated the system so that DK can't take over, isolates the angels likely for that they will only manage the system not interfere by anyone, then why include Rank god too? if they know where rank god is, just tell Alda to stacked and seal him so the monster no longer gets benefits from the system.

    I think, just isolated the system doesn't mean the Rank god is no longer be a part of the system or get his authority over the rank taken from him, it just that no one can MOD the system any further.
     
  13. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    And yep, we're once again back to the conclusion that you aren't worth speaking to.
     
  14. Overlord2019

    Overlord2019 Well-Known Member

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    We can sum up this "debate" as follows.

    Arha: "I'm right because I say I'm right, and I won't bother reading or responding to anyone because they refuse to see it, especially SMJCc13!"

    {Ring, Ring}

    Arha: "Hello?"

    Smjcc13: "This is Kettle, Pot. I hear you're calling me black?"

    Arha: "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! CAN'T YOU JUST ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!!!!"
     
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  15. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    Hearing that from you of all people makes me smile. The guy who got banned after making shit up for months on another site. After refusing to provide any defense for what you were saying for months. And then you call me a hypocrite. Adorable.
     
  16. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    IT's kind of sad seeing you pretend you're winning anything here.

    You can't seriously be stupid enough to think you're in the right here. I just took a casual glance at this page alone and other people are providing direct quotes, statistucs, and verifiable evidence for their arguments.

    You on the other hand spend half your time insulting people and the other half drawing questionable conclusions from information you ... kind of take from the story but but in a way that makes an air tight argument.

    For the record I don't know ANY of you people and don't really care who's right or wrong. I'm just a little in awe what a shameless fake you are. Like you do realize no one's falling for this shit right? No one's going to be insulted by you mocking them with what's almost completely just your own biased accusations against them.

    also FYI EVEN IF what you're saying holds some truth ... you completely shoot yourself in the foot with you just lashing out and insulting people instead of focusing on just making your point as concisely as possible.

    If someone's not understanding you then make your point without accusing people, if someone doesn't mention a part of your post you thought was important just bring it back instead of yelling at them for ignoring it.

    What I'm trying to say is I don't know enough about this fight to say who's in the right. But it's DEFINITELY not you. SO either your both in the wrong equally or it's just you.
     
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  17. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    Yo, I was willing to stop all this ages ago, but people won't shut up. Since you don't seem to know that, I assume you aren't actually reading the conversation at all, therefore I don't care what you think.
     
  18. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    and you only further prove my point.

    "People won't shut up" juding by this page what you actually mean is people won't just tell you what you want to hear. You also just cascually write off what you don't want to hear as nonsense rather than face it or built a real argument.

    Again this is entirely pointless as no one is going to look at this and side with you. You're just making yourself look like a complete ass for the sake of Ego and you know it.

    Seriously you have to realize you're not convincing a single damn person. I mean if you're satisfied with just believing your own bullshit then fine. Again I'm not really invested in this and I don't intend to be.

    But I'm just calling bullshit as I see it.
     
  19. DragonMage18

    DragonMage18 Outcast

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    Can you just stop this? I have not read the entire discusion, but from what I have read, I can say for sure.
    It is no longer a discusion about death mage, just some people throwing shit at eachother, with some mentions of the earlier debate.

    So I will ask this of you, either continue the dabate in a civil (no shit throwing) manner or move it elsewhere (preferably in PM)? Can you do it?
     
  20. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. I only briefly weighed in to call out the bullshit but this needs to stop and that goes both ways. and if one side really won't just let it go everyone should ignore them from this point on. Responding to stubborn idiots that won't let go will never end.

    Like having a debate is one thing. But FOR F's SAKE It's just a damn novel!!!! It doesn't matter even if someone is wrong about something you can just let them be wrong! You don't need to bully people into submission because they don't share the same opinion about a character or something.

    You can just say what you want to say and move on. If they don't agree so what? as long as you successfully made your point that's all you can do. You can't force people to agree with you.

    For the record I won't pretend I don't get heated sometimes myself. But I do at least try to be better when I can and besides it seems to happen way too often here.
     
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