LCD Death Mage

Discussion in 'Latest Chapter Discussion' started by lygarx, May 21, 2017.

  1. Donce

    Donce Well-Known Member

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    Here are much more. He is in Vida reincarnation system. It means Vida can always reincarnate him with his memories, or may be like Rod with his current body too. Also as death mage he can make himself undead too or may be pseudo reincarnate too. Because Van is so powerful Rod will not have any power over his soul too even if Van is killed. And Van power most likely will not change even after he is dead and in soul form only, he will be able to kill Gods as soul too. Van is not full god, so Alda seals most likely will not work on him too. So, it will be hard to seal him too.
     
  2. xacual

    xacual Well-Known Member

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    So on the topic of Gods, Heroic Spirits and such not having statuses. That’s true, they are no longer part of the system. That doesn’t mean they lost the skills and status that they had had though. The system empowers the soul of the individual and writes the skills and status in the soul. Just because they are no longer connected directly doesn’t mean they’ve lost anything. It’s why Banda still has Van’s stats despite no longer having the system. Also the Rod Angel trio, never had access to the system to begin with. They just kept the abilities Rod had already given them.

    Maybe people are thinking of the system like the one in Kumo Desu Ga where you lose everything if you are no longer connected?
     
  3. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    That's probably what it is, since the story has many times already pointed out that Alda was stacking the cards in his favor for a hundred thousand years by promoting strong people, not even just the heroic ones, to be Gods. Their gear and Status, just become permanent Divine equipment, that will probably become subordinate gods too over time.
     
  4. Mastine

    Mastine Well-Known Member

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    Problem is the reason why they are concerned is in centuries S+ class undead might destroy everything because Van isn't there. So to prevent that we will kill him now. The monsters in questions are ALREADY S+ class and can destroy the world AT THIS MOMENT. Killing Van because him dying in the future might cause trouble is just STUPID. As per usual Alda's faction causes their own problems.
     
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  5. Donce

    Donce Well-Known Member

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    And they only make assumption it will be like this, they don't know it will be like this.

    I can assume if my neighbor opens his door it will trigger butterfly effect which will result into big tsunami which will wash all humanity, so I need to kill him before he opens door. I am running to my kitchen to save world.
     
  6. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    exactly.

    It's the same issue with the ghouls. Yes Heinz concerns about the ghouls not cooperating and not being accepted are possible and at least partly true. But he doesn't try and simply makes assumptions to justify the course of actions he already decided before hand to take. He never had any intention of helping the ghouls as evidence by him wiping out entire settlements of ghouls as a casual adventure quest. He just makes excuses afterwards about why he didn't even try.

    To put it simply Heinz and Alda both are heavy victims of Confirmation Bias aka the tendency to look for information that supports, rather than rejects, one's preconceptions, typically by interpreting evidence to confirm existing beliefs while rejecting or ignoring any conflicting data.

    This fits Heinz and Alda's behavior to a T. Neither are willing to accept evidence that conflicts with the belief or choice they already decided to make before understanding the full situation.

    Bascially instead of saying "Van is a threat, what do we do .... guess we have to kill him" Heinz and Alda said "We're going to kill him ... now do we have a way to justify doing that?".
     
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  7. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    You really have to stop harping on that point, as it isn't as valid as other points. The same thing happens whether the adventurer is killing monsters (Ghouls) or killing humans (bandits, cultists, cannibals). In either case you wipe out all of them, so that they won't just move to another territory, build up their forces, and plague you again later. It's also totally justified to kill ALL of them, including the women and children, some of which were kidnapped before getting indoctrinated into that camp. Even if there isn't any mindcontrol, or extensive brainwashing involved, you can't tell which of the cultists killed by Doug and Legion were there willingly sacrificing villagers, and which were villagers trying to save their loved ones by complying with the Evil God worshipers' demands.
    You've simplified too far, so much it's no longer true. That chapter shows you the disconnect between everyone involved, the gods lack the mortal perspective and are jumping to extreme conclusions, but Heinz is looking at this from a Human standpoint, overly human centered pov, all human countries fail one way or another. Heinz is thinking that in another fifty years Van will either die, be assassinated, or grow corrupt with power and become a tyrant. These conclusions are from their biased perspectives yes, but it isn't about their denial to face facts, these facts just mean different things to them.
     
  8. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    Again it's not about whether or now Heinz is evil regarding his actions against the ghouls. The issue, especially in the recent chapter, is how he makes excuses about not even TRYING to do anything else.

    I'm not harping on it. it's just in the recent chapter it's one of the only things specifically mentioned. Too much of what Heinz does is kept really vague so there just aren't a whole lot of other examples to use. I mean we can make an educated guess on a lot of them but using examples with more actual details just works better.

    But again in either case the moral issue regarding the ghouls themselves isn't the point right now. The point is Heinz using confirmation bias to justify himself in everything he does.


    That's just an excuse. While on a basic level it's not an entirely wrong assumption that the empire would collapse without Van or that he'll become a tyrant think about how far they're going based on that assumption. They know for a fact how unusual Van is so past examples from human nations hold little weight. But they're still willing to commit to allout war while treating those assumptions as practically confirmed facts.

    It's not bad to make an educated guess as a temporary measure but if you're going to commit to a major action like trying to destroy the entire Vidal empire, then you need more than that. That's like saying "Oh this country MIGHT become dangerous and attack us. We should fight them now before that happens".

    Also again it's clear they're just making these conclusions to justify the actions they already decided to take. Heinz was prepared to fight "the demon king" before he even knew it was Van and after learning it only proceeded to make excuse after excuse as to why he wouldn't change course.

    For the record Confirmation Bias isn't unusual. Most people do it to at least some degree at least once in a while. The issue is Heinz does it to an extreme level and is completely unwilling to accept or really even look at evidence that contradicts his existing belief.
     
  9. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    It's not a good idea to gamble the fate of the world on the restraint of a deranged god killing abomination, even if he would rather be making mayonnaise than nomming up random deities. Van hasn't actually done anything to earn Heinz's trust, nor does Heinz have any reason to believe that Van is immortal. The question of what exactly happens to the empire if Van dies is a legitimate question that we the audience don't have an answer for and we know way more than Heinz does.

    There's nothing wrong with Heinz wanting to find out if this empire is actually going to survive or whether it'll explode and kill everyone if Van stays in the bath too long one day.
     
  10. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    The problem isn't how Heinz is responding to that question, it's how we are. We know things that neither Heinz or Alda's cronies do. We know that Van already solved the Ghoul fertility crisis, with an enchanted item even, so it's a solution that will last beyond his lifetime. We also know that it's the Death Mana itself that pacified the undead, not Van's Guidance (Van could always leave things behind for that), and even if it were, we know from listening to Alda in just this chapter that Guidance doesn't fade.
     
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  11. Kaithar

    Kaithar Well-Known Member

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    They're bothered in the passing "not really our problem or fault" kind of way, and partly because Van and Heinz talked. Certainly they have some conscience, but not enough to stop them from continuing to do whatever Alda tells them to, right up to the end. My point is that they don't get any less of an obstacle, they get worse. Heinz got sent to Mill because he was showing signs of going off party lines.

    No... He's turned Selene into a mascot for the Church of Alda, so they can show how un-genocidal they're feeling... He's left her as a hostage (the SS shows he is aware) to be raised as a figurehead to fight against Vida. The Dhampirs and other Vida races will be used against him as hostages if he did ever try to leave. Their arguments over giving Darcia the award shows that he has changed nothing.

    They are no longer part of the reincarnation system, but that isn't a requirement for status... Are they also excluded from the separate status display system?

    You can't argue genocide because of criminals. There's a difference between a village of accomplices and a couple of murders in a village. The policy of wiping out all ghouls without distinction is like saying to kill humans on sight because of some bandits and cults. Humans are treated with individual potential for morality and criminality, Vida's races often are not. That is the problem, establishing cause vs assuming cause.
     
  12. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    Think about how quickly, and without question, the orders went from "Protect the cultivation villages from bandits/monsters" to "wipe out the cultivation villages, they are harboring monsters/bandits." Van doesn't care about the political upheaval, or the economic impact, when he wipes out a ton of knights with orders, but most of the genocides we've seen in this story were motivated by one or the other, religion was just the excuse.

    Also, a lot of stories have some quick and easy way to identify criminals, but you never actually see them testing the crystal/flashlight/guildcard on the group of people gathering in the middle of the woods, just 'those are obviously bandits, lets wipe them out, and see if they have any treasure in their lair.'
     
  13. The Godly Aeolus

    The Godly Aeolus Well-Known Member

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    At least Vandalieu doesn't have to worry too much about this particular issue. If he comes across a mysterious group in the middle of the forest, he'll know if they're bandits within a few seconds because they're either swarmed by the spirits of their victims, or they notice him and attack him immediately; Lambda doesn't seem to have a lot of middle-ground-type situations, I've noticed.
     
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  14. xacual

    xacual Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Once you become a god you are no longer in the status system to have a display or anything. The system is only for empowering “mortal” souls. It’s part of the reason that it’s weird Van still has a status. As a demigod he’s the same as the elder dragons and colossi but he’s kept his system status intact. Everyone else if they ascend to godhood / heroic spirit loses it.
     
  15. Donce

    Donce Well-Known Member

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    You are missing the point. It does not mean anything if one looks from Alda perspective (not gods perspective, but Alda perspective, not all gods have this perspective, only most of Alda faction have), in the end it is biased perspective ignoring anything else. Or if one looks from Heinz perspective (it is not human perspective, but Heinz perspective, Heinz don't represent all humanity), so it is biased perspective. Facts meaning different things from reality is supper biased. Heinz too are powerful from human perspective and he can become corrupted after some time. So, it is ok if some group rises and try to kill Heinz just because he have possibility to become corrupted? But in this case all humans have possibility to grow in strength and become corrupted, does this mean all humans needs to be killed? You also have little brother between your legs (I think you are male) so you have possibility, so should we castrated you because you have possibility to rape women? All S rank adventures have possibility to get corrupted, so we need to kill all of them.
    If you see someone who help old grandma carry things, who give plaster to kid who fell and so on and you come to conclusion he will become corrupted after few years and will destroy the world, so you decide to kill him before he does it, it is facts denial at best and in worst it is psychopathy. If you look other history of Earth you will find few mass murderers who have said they wanted to save the world because all they victims would have destroyed the world if left alive.
     
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  16. metazoxan

    metazoxan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's quite right.

    We're certainly not told the god's have status but it's never fully outright said they don't or that they lose it upon divinification. Even if that's the case it's been stated Rank 13 monsters are around the level of lesser god's or demigods (I forget which) meaning the system at least doesn't reject entities with such power.

    So AT THE VERY LEAST even if we assume god's do lose access to the status system it's likely they need to actually abandon the physical plane and become full god's.

    Demigod's are still bound to physical bodies and can only project their spirits into divine realms temporarily.
     
  17. Donce

    Donce Well-Known Member

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    Can you tell in witch chapter it is said what once you become god you no longer in the status system? I don't remember reading about it. Alda and Vida may not be in status system, but this would be because status system is power of god and other gods who are powerful may not be under it, but weak once may be. Like low level gods can't give blessing to Van, but Vida and other powerful gods can.
    It is not weird Van still has status, because Van is not a god. He did not ascended to godhood. He is demigod under system, only because he took demurge job of system and system can't make true gods. So, Van is not a god. He can give blessings not because he is god, but because he have system power. So, he use system to give his blessings.
    And in previous chapter said system works only on surface of soul. So, I guess it makes tattoo on souls surface and mimic humans could eat this tattoos and steal skills. So, if Van don't wash his soul from all tattoos he will be under system.
     
  18. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    Fidirg indicated he doesn't have a status and doesn't explicitly gain exp. It sounds like he's not sure if killing stuff makes him stronger or not, but even if he does it doesn't seem to be the same thing as exp.

    Heroic Spirits do seem to have statuses. Gods 'born' after the status system was created may also possess statuses, going by Fitun. However, it's also possible that the skills they possess are not Skills, so to speak, unless they descend on a vessel.
     
  19. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    You are missing the point, Alda has the perspective a of a God that was never born as a mortal. That's the perspective of most of the Great gods, and all of the subordinate/familiar spirits that became gods after. They see Van as a terrible threat, because he's the only thing since Guduranis that can actually hurt or kill them. They don't see the possibility that he might not care enough about them to come after them, to them it's a certainty, because all humans want something.
    You went rambling on the Heinz point, so I don't know where to start countering that. Just, Heinz is thinking about it from the point of view of someone that rose up from being poor. There are a lot of adventurers like the ones that picked a fight with Van, they get bullied, they get a little bit of power and then they start pushing around people that are weak. From Heinz' pov Van is doing heroic things, but he obviously doesn't care about the harm he does when he does them. Van destroyed a mine (and the mountain it was in) when he rescued slaves, destroyed Mage guild buildings, and just recently terrorized Alcrem by tearing the faces off of people all over the capitol. If you think of Van as just a normal human, with what Alda's faction actually know about what Van did in Sauron, Hartner, and around Morksi, then he is already on the road to destroying the world as payback for how Vida's races are treated. Heinz at least knows that Van has a good heart and isn't actually trying to destroy the world right now, but he could.
    That's the thing right there the status system was created to empower mortals, and we have no indication that it works on any of the Gods, but we do have the Heroic and Subordinate gods talking about how they are stronger now than the kind of lesser gods that were raised up prior to the DK invasion. So they probably don't benefit directly from the System, but they do keep the power they gained as mortals when they ascend, and they probably gain something when they descend onto a mortal too. Maybe they only gain status while technically a mortal?
     
  20. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    No, descending onto a mortal should actually make them weaker, going by Bobby and so on. And going by Gordan, normal heroic and familiar spirit descent seem to be more like stat buffs, so that doesn't really work either.