How to Write Power Restraints on Characters?

Discussion in 'Author Discussions' started by Little Li, Feb 28, 2019.

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Which one of these scenarios is more plausible

  1. Scenario 1

    5 vote(s)
    23.8%
  2. Scenario 2

    1 vote(s)
    4.8%
  3. A combination of the two

    7 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. Another Scenario (post below)

    8 vote(s)
    38.1%
  1. Tsuru55

    Tsuru55 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't read the first post and only checked some others.

    What about having MC getting some tempary allies or some strong master(s) that find him interesting or that he got potential ? or it also could be because it was whim, or just a powerful good-natured immortal passing near the location of MC when he gets into a near-death fight and he gonna lose.

    You should read Upgrade specialist, got strong power lvls but MC only encounters enemies he can beat and/or kills enemies that are slightly stronger then him.
    Of course in later chapters we get to the cliche "MC became OP and can fight enemies that are 1 or 2 level higher then him".
     
  2. bob3002

    bob3002 Well-Known Member

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    The reason why in CN novels the MC always comes from a backwater region and ends up moving slowly to more and more powerful regions is basically this. Without resetting the power structure often, it doesn't make logical sense why someone 5 levels higher than the MC hasn't walked by and swatted him like a mosquito out of annoyance. Instead you see the MC fight enemies 0-1 level higher, and successfully run away from those 2 levels higher until he can power up. Then he becomes the overlord of a region before events contrive a reason to move to a more powerful region where his level is "ordinary" again, and most importantly no one has heard of him. Rinse and repeat.

    WMW is still one of my favorite CN novels because of how practical and anti-heroic (read: evil) Leylin was. Leylin repeatedly made the most of opportunities, when two forces stronger than he were fighting, to get as many benefits as possible. When writing your novel having factional conflicts could also explain why the strong ones aren't directly squashing low-levels, because of the threat of having the same done to their juniors.
     
  3. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    Yep... whenever he messed with a stronger faction he made sure he survives it beforehand.
     
  4. Robbini

    Robbini Logical? Illogical? Random? Or Just Unique?

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    1) Is very likely to tend with up cultivator that cares less about the world than themselves and thus try to get rich or powerful , and would get into conflict with the MC. There are always people like that around. And they would justify killing and seizing whatever the MC has as doing better for the world with them rather than him.

    2) Is pretty common, be it the world unable to hold them or them not being able to survive or use lots of power. But there also tends to be ways to either ignore it for some time or totally bypass it for some time.
     
  5. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    In the end the best way is to just not give them temporal or fatalistic powers and go for the hide and run approach. Its what makes the most sense.
     
  6. SolInvictus

    SolInvictus Well-Known Member

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    Hi, this answer may not be what you want to hear but, I think that you have bitten of off more than you can chew. For now.

    Many writers and directors take on huge projects with grand plots, complex themes and a huge cast of characters...but they don't have the skill to pull it off. The result is a bad story. You get philosophies that try to sound deed but, end up being shallow contradictory or just plain silly.
    You get major plot holes, cliches, or characters that don't act consistently.

    I enjoy wuxia (mostly because of the scenarios) but I've honestly never read one that I'd rate more than 6 (not even any of Er Gen's work). If I grew up in China and was familiar with these types of stories, I probably wouldn't bother reading them. Other than fresh scenarios (to a western reader) they don't have much going for them.

    Some creators dive in the deep end and improve over the course of their careers. That's not a bad approach. It takes a person from talking about writing to actually doing it and that's an accomplishment in itself but, the downside is that they create a lot of crap in the process.
    Sometimes that crap ends up being popular, the artist doesn't grow because they are making money/building a fanbase even with crappy writing i.e, they have no incentive to do better. M Night is a great example. Everything he makes sells so he doesn't seem to know what makes a good film anymore.

    My advice is to start with smaller stories and keep going on to bigger one's.

    Start with a story that you think you could handle without much of a challenge. Something short. I'm certain it will surprise you how challenging even a 5'000 word story can be. Write it and put it out there.

    Feedback is supposed to be on technical shortcomings: continuity issues, characters acting inconsistently, the pacing/flow being off, spelling grammar, etc. Not the major plot itself.

    If you have to ask for others to help you with anything other the proof reading or copy editing your work, then it is likely that you are taking on something you don't yet have the skills to execute to the standards you'd like.

    To help things flow I'd recommend you do this.

    1. Pick the main theme of your story.
    What is the main view of life you are trying to show people? Is it about courage? What exactly do you want tell readers about courage? How does it relate to the individual?

    Ultimately, what do you want to say by writing this story?

    I find it odd that so many people spend years creating something but, if you ask them what the theme is they can't give you a clear answer.

    When you have a clear theme, you have a solid guide on all other creative decisions that follow. Because every word you put down has to tie in with that main theme.

    For the other parts of the story I'd recommend using 'the snowflake method'

    https://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/snowflake-method/

    It's practical, short and simple. It covers plot and character writing very well.

    The last element I'd advise is reading a lot and keeping notes.

    This is crucially important to making a unique story. I've never met a writer who wasn't an avid reader. They might slow down after gaining writing experience but, to want to write you must have an interest in reading. 20 books a year is an easy goal. 40 would be great.

    Keep short notes (on your phone or PC) that you keep summaries of things that you really liked in a book, film, music video, joke, name, anything. Try to analyse what made it good or bad and always write the source to give credit if ever you are asked about your influences. Go through your favourite action scenes or funniest dialogue. Go through the saddest scenes or more romantic moments and learn why they work. Then try and write it in your own way. Tell a joke that you think is funny irl. Write romance how you think actual men and women in your characters positions would respond (10'000 years of no fap virgin cultivating...and these people still feel greed for some treasures or get swayed by someone's "jade like skin" ). If you keep notes on all the interesting things you do and see, they help you create organic and interesting scenes rather than trying to make up a joke on the spot. A joke that isn't connected to realistic scenarios.

    The more of your preferences for beauty and humour and action you put in - the more of your own 'style' you develop. If you have a clear theme, a solid plot, interesting and consistent characters, and your own style then you would be the best wuxia writer I've ever come across. At least a 7/10.

    The remaining bit is being original (no more pale skin, no more distance between heaven and Earth, no more frog in the well, no more arms like jade) having a good flow (i.e., pacing) and the most difficult one - being ingenious.

    Being ingenious is writing out a challenge and then resolving it in a clever way that the majority of readers can follow but, that they couldn't solve themselves. It's incredibly challenging to come up with an original puzzle. The vast majority of writers (every single wuxia) will just use an ex machina. But, it definitely helps your reader's "see" how badass your characters are and think of them as "real" people because the solution was something that could really happen in that world. Rather than just saying they are profound schemers and asking us to believe it

    Don't tell us he's clever. Show us your character doing something clever and let us come to that conclusion ourselves.

    Ok. bye.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  7. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    Exhaustive answer, but mostly on point. I should also warn you that the generic wuxia setting is broken by default.
     
  8. GDLiZy

    GDLiZy Wise Deepsea Mermaid

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    Improving upon the first scenario, the calamity is as powerful, if not, a lot more powerful than the Immortal Faction and pushed the Immortal Faction into a desperate situation. The Immortals, who cared not about the mortals yet adored their bloodline, had no time to care about the tiny mortal that is our MC. Then, let add some more restain towards our godly Immortals.

    1) Let them have attachments that stopped them from the underhanded tricks. Having a family and dare not take hostage of another because it would give the Immortal's enemies excuses to do as well.
    2) Order of the mortals is crucial for the survival of the Immortals. To ruthlessly kill the mortals are to decrease the talent pool for the future generations of the Immortal, which would be bad considering that their situation is on the losing end.
    3) Let MC have a backing of someone with respect and power. Having the support of one of the factions within the Immortal Faction that saw the worth of the MC and decide to shelter him. This way, the Immortals would have to think twice before doing anything stupid.
     
  9. Galooza

    Galooza The One True Walapalooza

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    There are different options depending on the power and culture scope of your story. Are the Immortals who can fly the absolute peak or way up, or are they all cultivators who can fly like most Xianxias? If you incorporate some wuxia on the lower end of the spectrum where low tiers have to travel on beasts, etc, then you can stretch out time as it's first going to take time for news to travel up and down the grapevine unless you wanna incorporate things like life talismans that track lives (dumb imo), then added time for the subordinates to investigate, etc, until the mc is able to power balance or get away from those sent after him/her, perhaps by hiding away among mortals. If you want a higher level of fiction, personally I'd look at the standard powers of disguises or whatever rather than weird plots to convenience the mc. Kinda putting the cart before the horse in that regard.

    Most CNs, for whatever reason, are written so the mc essentially has no options and is forced in any situation. That comes by how stupidly broken you make things in general like wildly outrageous items or abilities.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  10. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    If everything is overpowered, nothing is.

    The issue is that wuxia settings are often broken, as in several elements break all the normal rules of it. This creates an insane imbalance in power. Why did Leylin never get found despite prophecy magic being used? Because he had defenses up and nobody wanted to hire a mage two ranks higher than him because he literally wasn't worth the effort.

    At other times he was running for months, or hiding for a literal century, because he pissed people off he shouldn't have offended. Sometimes this was unintentional since he got provoked by the other side (read one of their descendants tried to kill him and he retaliated in kind) and sometimes it was calculated (got fucktons of loot but his backing was slightly stronger than the enemies).

    He never showed his cards, because then some greedy asshole was bound to kill him, didn't trust the senior in the ring (at some point he played one himself, and then harvested the poor fools) and instead screwed her over (barely). This is partially why WMW is a pretty good novel. Characters, and especially the MC, act by thinking and calculating first. And this is also where most wuxia settings and plots hard fail.

    Characters are retarded. The economy doesnt matter or maybe barely when a clan sees something shiny another clan has. The MC is a meme because he literally 1 vs 3s masters above his own rank etc... when it was stated before just how insane the power difference is. And please write characters first, then think how they act within the setting. If it somehow doesnt add up: make a new character. Change the setting or the character. Doing the former might inevitable create a Mary Sue. Wouldnt be the first in a CN tho...

    Also good guys dont work in a strong eats weak setting. His enemies would tear him apart at the first notion of weakness if they have an competence (and id assume they have that after literal milennias of fighting).

    Finally the big three are game breakers. And with that I mean temporal, spacial and fatalistic powers. Space can be balanced to an extend, but the other two will shatter almost any plot in so many pieces its an exercise in futility to fix it. Ever thought about how storage rings impact the economy? Just an example.
     
  11. Little Li

    Little Li Member

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    Wow guys, I didn't expect to get this much feedback on the thread. Thanks for the wonderful ideas. I'll do my best to reply to replies I found interesting or can clarify my direction of the story

    The problem I find with this is that this is too lazy. Sure you can do this for a little bit, but if you keep doing this, it starts to be lazy writing, something I don't really like when reading other Xianxia.

    Yes, I do agree that most of them are in seclusion so they won't have time to do some of those regular cultivator affairs. However, I also make the realms they are at make it hard to break through. Most realms of of power are ridiculous to cultivate through, like for example, when cultivators gain Immortal status, it probably took the ordinary ones among them 2000 years to do so, more "genius cultivators" with resources and aptitude maybe take half that time. At that point, it takes encounters with treasures that allow them to cut the time it takes to break through since some of them are either at the end of their lifespan and want more years and power, so as a consequence they are more involved with the world below them. Also, they will still be tied by their super clans and sects as ancestors that watch over them. So I don't want them to restricted by just the sole fact that they are restricted by their hunger for power.

    Yes, this is definitely interesting. In my novel, I will have karma have an abstract role to explain some events and eventually, it starts to play a major role later on. However it would take some time to develop rules of karma that could hinder Immortals. Furthermore, justifying different karma is difficult, especially since it can put a shackle on my MCs actions based on those justifications. So until I can think of something specific, I'll have to put it off for now.

    Yeah, I think in the future, I could possibly have the MC have ally Immortals that can cause a sort of "cold war" situation, we'll see.

    Yeah, I've already planned out some plot that is like your idea. Though my MC isnt necessarily talented that sects scout him and protect him. And he isnt a cripple either that gets overpowered through some immortal inheritance at the beginning and starts to clap a chosen's cheeks. Rather he starts cultivation from wanting answers of his father's death and mother's whereabouts. Eventually though, he will start to slowly but surely make a name and get affiliated with the Immortals above, which is where he will get some protection. Though that protection will wear off... (No spoilers :D)

    Yeah, my inspiration for riding a Xianxia stems from the fact that I hated novels like this appearing everywhere and that I could do something better! As for the "arrogant master", I do plan to have them since let's face it, it is somewhat prevalent even outside of Xianxia. However, the "arrogance" is more reserved for the younger generation of chosen of either sects or clans due to their upbringing, and lack of experience of the world. The conflict between Immortals will likely not stem from this though since even the subordinates below them raising the chosen will allow my MC to somewhat beat them up for their "further development". Eventually, the arrogant masters will die out in the story as my MC approaches more older chosen and the senior generation since they've already been through that "phase", and or, they haven't been spoiled or raised like that in the first place. Also, the nature of my MC is that he isn't very vengeful over stupid crap like name calling and isn't the type to return the favor by ruining their "face" too much, since much of the stupid plot movement of normal Xianxia comes from the MC returning the favor tenfold like spitting on their face and smashing their brains in in front of the whole audience. My MCs nature is instead more goal oriented and doesn't really like causing trouble, and he isn't too cold where he brushes them off and thus infuriates them, instead he would give them face and address the situation rather than ignore it.

    To address your questions:
    1. First off, my MC will eventually gain recognition as a potential candidate for chosen, thus, other candidates will want to suppress him so that he can't get resources and progress. Furthermore, the senior generation will become competitors that try to snatch treasures as well. As for the Immortals, I dont want to spoil anything of the MC's background, but let's just say from birth, he was destined to fight a clan of them...

    2. The MCs goal is to discover the truth of his family background, though along the way, he will meet new people and will slowly develop new goals along with his original. Furthermore, as he cultivates, he will come in contact with the "Dao" and will start to realize his own path. Thus, his goals due grow bigger, and the realization of the lack of power he has over the things around him causes him to fight for power, it isn't out of greed, but it is out of a necessity to find his way within a world ruled by the law of the jungle for the most part.

    Also, in your last remark, I want to address the "super high level smartasses" point. In my book, do I plan to make some of the Immortals who have cultivated to that point be those clever schemers. Those Immortals are characters that have reached their point not just from talent and resources, but through sheer intellect, and eventually, accumulate massive experience in scheming as a consequence. However, other Immortals would have reached that point maybe a bit faster from a rich background, loads of talent, or are simply born an Immortal (non humans like devas and demon beasts) and can oppose them as well. So I believe that I could possibly mix the MCs connections with those types that can balance out the powers of the cunning Immortals. However, I will let the cunning ones scheme behind the scenes against the MC as well. Also, the cunning ones may also be "allies" of the MC, in that their interests clash with the others of their kind and will only protect or aid the MC out of pure benefits.

    Wow, I actually never really thought of that for some reason even though its found in a lot of novels. I might implement this to some extent, though it won't be too much time dialation as to prevent any "lazy writing" or plotholes. Maybe the time in the heavens and earth is that for every year spent there, it is actually 3 years in the mortal world. It will give the MC a tiny bit of breathing room though thanks!

    Don't worry, the MC starts out with a cultivation manual from his mother. It doesn't give him massive power to fight the realms above way easier, but its a starting point. I will only give him treasures that will either be through hard work, or the treasure can't even be used at his realm at all until he gets to a certain realm, at that point, it won't be too overpowered.

    Also, to clear up the misunderstanding, this is a Xianxia, not a Wuxia. Xianxia can have martial elements, but Xianxia characters aren't bound by a physical conventions that Wuxia characters are. Of course, they can give them a slight edge depending on circumstance. Think of it as the difference between having a bear going against hyenas, versus having a Bruce Lee fight 10 infants.

    Meh, I really hate explanations like this since it really limits the power of Immortals way too much. Stuff like that is only reserved for world destroying Immortal stories. The Immortals of heaven in my story aren't the only powerful figures as there are more primordial and powerful figures within the mortal realm as well. I want my setting to be more interconnected in that way. Think of the Journey to the West type of setting almost. It's also why Scenario 2 sort of puts me off a bit since I want their influence to be felt more.

    Yeah, I guess I should make character developing arcs and plot that help him tackle this in the future. Ill also add the elements of both good luck and bad luck. The good luck will be some fortuitous encounters, the bad luck being the things attracted to them, it will be a goal of whether the MC wants to abandon it for later, or he will accept it and train to face the consequences. After all, he isn't Fang Yuan from Reverend Insanity who is completely ruthless in nature and already has experience from the start.


    I'll give my thoughts to a few more replies later since I don't have time. I just kind of wanted to outline some thoughts to discuss and how my story may accommodate or already has. I appreciate the effort you guys make to help me write this :D

    Edit: I definitely saw some more helpful comments I'll want to reply to when I wake up heh heh.
     
  12. Galooza

    Galooza The One True Walapalooza

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    As Ninja said, good writing is the best restraint, and that includes a setting that doesn't completely limit an mc. We tend to view 'Xianxia' in a limited and forced setting because that's the setting most Chinese authors impose. They like masculine mcs that are forced to fight their way out of any situation, but that's not the definition of what Xianxia is. Simply look at different aspects of your world as to how limiting they are, should they necessarily be kept if they cut off a character's way to get out of a situation and be saved by the hand of plot armor? I don't like the term plot armor, but a limiting setting is exactly why it's thrown around so often.
     
  13. Vanidor

    Vanidor Well-Known Member

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    I don’t thinking you need to use one idea either, life isn’t like that. Take college professors as an example, some are busy with small kids, some have demanding research, demanding teaching schedules due to new courses, some are off trying to get laid soon as class ends, some are traveling on sabatical, etc.

    Some of the immortals will be off fighting private wars, exploring areas, teaching, cultivating, spending their time helping distant decendants cultivate, etc. There doesn’t have to be one or two answers.
     
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  14. zloi medved

    zloi medved Well-Known Green Tea Bitch

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    I think this is more of an honour system. To put it into real world context:

    If you are a fully grown mature adult, let's say about 40, and there's a 5-year-old child who is really just the most annoying little shit you've ever seen, throws tantrums, breaks things, is just an absolute terror. While you'd probably chastise the child and maybe, depending on the household, spank them maybe, you wouldn't get into a full blown fight with them or kill them. It's an overblown response to a fairly limited scope of trouble and destruction, and it's also just incredibly pathetic and embarrassing to be well into adulthood but trying to pick fistfights with a fucking toddler.

    In time that little terrorist bastard might grow up and have these angry, destructive traits intensify, and go on to be a sociopath who puts you in real danger! But they also might not. In cultivation stories, it's often held up as a rare thing for cultivators to really reach the upper levels of cultivation, either because they die, or they don't have the talent or determination for it, etc. So do you go around wantonly killing every child who annoys you because they might have a 1% chance to grow up and be Jeffrey Dahmer? But even if you have future knowledge or a time machine and know for sure that's what's going to happen, are you, a middle aged adult man, going to murder a child? Or are you going to try to just distance yourself or reform them?

    So I don't think it's a case of senior cultivators being stupid idiots. Because we're reading things from the protagonist's perspective, we the readers know for a fact that they are going to go on to become a powerful cultivator, but for everyone else in the world, they probably don't see the cultivator as particularly special. And at the end of the day, if you're a powerful immortal, you are the same as an adult acting amongst children. You have social responsibility and your own personal pride that would keep you from punching a toddler.
     
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  15. ongoingwhy

    ongoingwhy Meat Pie Lover

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    Do you think these powerful immortals have nothing better to do than to deal with some ant jumping around? Do you think the subordinates of these powerful immortals report every single trivial matter to their boss? Do you think the protagonist is the only one who could defeat opponents stronger than him?

    People like to refer to this as plot armor etc but does it really make sense for the boss to act whenever some fool starts causing trouble? If that's the case, what's the point of keeping around these subordinates? Even if these ants actually become powerful enough to threaten you, don't you think you who is far more experienced will easily be able to deal with them? If you don't even have any confidence in yourself, why are you even cultivating? You should just retired and become farmer...