I am going to protest

Agreed with you there. Some Translators are too lazy to convert those units. Even web novels leave it as it is.

 

Yeah, henceforth the only units that should be used are furlong for length, hundredweight for weight, and hogshead for volume! Just imagine how smoothly "Goliath must be 0.0013 furlongs tall - he's a giant!" would flow. Wait, that would be stupid, and this thread is a bad idea. These units of measure may not be SI but not converting them doesn't mean that the translation isn't in English; nor does it mean that the translator is lazy.

For flavor. We don't want people in Medieval French to speak like modern people and to use perfect SI units because it'd feel wrong and the book would sound stupid. Instead we'd expect such characters to use the kind of terminology that's authentic for the period; leading to a more immersive reading experience.

 

It kind of depends for me. Sometimes the novel is just the type where it feels cuter with their original worlds as it's more flowery that way. It also gives off the original vibes depending on the setting. For ancient typeish settings original words moderate ly used seem fine, not over done. Some original names sound better. For example: you have a nice traditional type of expensive resturant originally named Feng LouYan Pavilion or something: It wouldn't really feel the same if someone changed it to something more englishish.

But for many simple things I have to agree that they might as well change it. Like shi chen, at the beginning when I first started these novels, especially when I was into ancient setting, I couldn't get used to them at all. Sometimes the Translators would put footnotes and after a while they would stop for the same ones. Once I thought one of those Shi chen's, Zi Shi's were some characters who popped up out of nowhere.

Instead I have seen more Translators stress with Xiao, like every where. When I think Xiao seems good Little comes up, when Little feels more suitable, Xiao comes out of nowhere. And some even end up changing in the middle or switching back and forth. Like come on it's not even the least of you troubles, Translators-sama.

 

But that's not the same.
Like I said, it is one thing to translate for Chinese in the Diaspora and to translate for an average English reader.
Diaspora Chinese might appreciate it but for an average English reader, it flies over their head.
For someone like yourself, who understands both languages, you get the nuances but for those like me who only understand English. We simply get confusion.

And you just made my other point, why are translators using Japanese honorifics for a story set in Medieval Europe?

Your comment reminds me of Bible translation. I never read King James Version for that reason.
The "cometh" "weareth" etc are not my cup of tea

 

These old measurements aren't used anywhere any more so they're no more familiar to Chinese diaspora than to any old reader. The only difference is that the diaspora are more likely to read and watch historical Chinese fiction. There's nothing inherent about the language that makes them easier to figure out, and anyone who want to know the exact measurement would still have to look it up. It doesn't matter mainly because these numbers are usually used figuratively so know what they are exactly is unimportant.

I'd say that these are both bad - something like "Duke-sama" is far uglier looking than "Your Grace". It feels wrong and translators should stop doing it. Likewise the Bible is the most translated book in the entire world, and there are tons of translations out there that are more authentic and easier to parse than the King James version. I have no idea why people cling to it other than liking bad translations.

 

nah this cat already bored with those stuff not even bother~ similarly with those weird imperial system unit plus weird unit such as, football field or toyota corrola~

sure those can be used to learn some "culture", meh too much measurement~ if they insist they can use format
"insert unit" (approximate xxx unit)

its will be different if we talk about social strata, honorific tho~ eastern asia on whole different league of pronouncing honorific title and stuff~
they are crazy~

 

All according to keikaku.
(TL Note: keikaku means plan)

There's a reason this became a meme. The whole point of translating is to make the original text accessible without knowing the original language. Leaving a word untranslated is a choice to make the text less accessible to potential readers. In the example above, there is no good reason to start teaching the readers (or viewers) the Japanese word for "plan". They turned to a translation because they don't know the language, not because they're trying to learn it. A translator's note should be a last resort to make sure the reader understands what's going on. It's a tool to aid in accessibility. But if you could just translate the word in the first place, then you probably should.

OK, yeah, that was an obvious example, but I've seen all sorts of flimsy excuses for leaving words untranslated. The one I personally dislike the most is "the readers know the words anyway". It assumes that the only people who will read your translations are already fully steeped in a bunch of other fan translated novels in the same language. It removes accessibility for any new audience. The next one I see most is leaving words in to "preserve the nuance". You think you can't convey the same nuances in English (or whatever language you're translating to)? As a fellow translator, I suggest you at least try. It might not be perfect, but that's OK. There is always nuance lost in translation, just by nature of linguistic differences. Your reader is not going to understand the nuance any better by reading the original word, unless they speak the original language. For example, I know a lot of people on here are aware of some common Japanese honorifics and think they understand the nuances of them. But unless you've spoken the language in genuine conversation with native speakers, you probably only have surface-level knowledge of them. Having them attached to names isn't doing you any favors.

So uhh, yeah, I agree. Translate.

Funny thing about the King James version is that the whole point was to make it easily understood and flow well in speech. It's actually a GOOD translation. For the time it was made. There are certainly problems with it of course. But agreed, people cling to it for some reason these days still when they don't need to.

 

For the S.I. units, it really depends on whether it's necessary. Translated novels should be readable, but it should be immersive as well. You could use imperial units in historical ancient China setting, and I'm sure some people will say that it's good since it's convenient, but honestly, it's just wrong. It's an obvious anachronism.

It's not about rewriting or anything here, but you're bringing in something that doesn't belong into that era, and that's not something a translator ought to be doing.

Translators use those mu, li, and similar units because those are what people really use in that era, unless you're reading a pseudo-English created ancient China where people use a 24 hour clock and metric system etc. Heck, Chinese authors also use the imperial system in day-to-day life too, but they still opt to use li, mu, etc in their stories simply because it would be right to use it.

It's true that readers won't get it at first, but the thing about translating Chinese novel is to expose readers to Chinese culture and immerse them in the setting. If you're going to remove Chinese culture altogether from your translation, you might as well just not translate at all. Measurement units may seem like a minor detail, but it's definitely one of the key elements that differentiate ancient China from the modern world. If you change it inappropriately, it'll be a puzzle piece placed wrongly

Well, some translators do go too far trying to romanize the terminologies that the final work ends up becoming unreadable, so a balance has to be struck. But measurement units-wise, if the story setting clearly demands it, nothing wrong with using mu, li, zhang, etc.

 

Fair point but speaking as someone who speaks just English, with a Chinese roommate and friends.
Your good intentions do not mean it works in practise.
I am sure I watch more Chinese content than the average westerner and I am very much exposed to the culture.
I know about Jin Ping Mei, Dream of Red Mansions, Jin Yong, Gu Long etc
mu, li, zhang and the rest just make me confused.
And I have self-studied Chinese and was supposed to go to Taiwan to study before Covid struck.
It ruins immersion for me.
The names of the characters and places are more than enough to show the setting and culture

 

If we're looking at it from an individual's point of view, I do know of people who can't stand anachronisms in stories, and seeing meters in an ancient China novel breaks immersion for them.

From a translator's point of view, there are bound to be people who dislike the inconveniences brought about by certain terms, but that doesn't mean that it would be right to swap them out for a more modern one for convenience's sake. Books are indeed written to be read, but it's respect to uphold the cultural significance and intent behind the work. I don't think it's right to remove such culturally significant aspects of the world-building like 'mu, cun, li, zhang' in English translations using the reason that they are confusing.

Of course, it's worth debating which aspects of the Chinese culture in the novels are significant enough to be preserved and which ones ought to be changed since no one would want to read a novel on ancient China in a completely foreign and archaic language, but I personally believe the preservation of measurement systems in stories that are very grounded in ancient China should be fundamental (just emphasizing it so as to say that I don't hold this opinion to all xianxia and xuanhuan novels since not all of them are steadfast on the ancient China setting despite having some elements of it).

It's similar to how if you read a story about ancient Egypt, you'd expect people to be measuring by 'arm length' or cubits instead of meters (though a parallel world with ancient Egyptian elements would be a different story).

 

What is the significance of 'mu, cun, li, zhang'?

 

It's a unit of measurement used by the Chinese for more than a millennium. If you can't see why it can be significant to the Chinese heritage, then there's honestly no point in discussing this at all.
To me, what I'm seeing here is something like 'let's call qipao Chinese dress so that the readers can better understand it. Qipao is just a name and it's indeed a Chinese dress, so we should just translate it since it can be translated'. As a translator, I simply just don't think it's right.

 

Qipao is not the same.
It is the same with character names and names of locations like cities.
Asking to translate a unit of measurement is not the same as asking to translate a name.
We do not have to deal with "10 qipao length of cloth".
You are speaking from the point of view of someone who understands both languages.
If I used French units of measurements, you will be just as confused.
Many have said that the measurements are irrelevant but I am trying to understand the distance the protagonist has travelled.
You think translating measurements makes it less Chinese, I beg to differ.
Changing character names like the horrible translations of Duke of Mount Deer is not the same as measurements
I am not asking you to do what he did:
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthr...d-s-Deer-and-the-Cauldron-review#.WdlMZmhSzIU

 

The argument goes both ways though. I could also say
---
You are speaking from the point of view of someone who understands both languages.
If I used a French clothing term, you will be just as confused.
I am just trying to know what the protagonist is trying to wear here, not some garblish text I don't understand.
---
And if I'm reading an old translated French novel where the imperial units doesn't exist, I'd respect that and learn whatever the French were using back in that era. Well, that's just for me so I cant speak for others.

 

Basically, when reading a translation, someone needs a language dictionary.
To me, that defeats the purpose of a translation.
I am not asking you to do what John Minford did

 

Answering your edited post on top: You think translating measurements makes it less Chinese, I beg to differ.

And that's exactly what we're disagreeing on. If you're going to change the contextual cultural aspect of the novel as well, I believe that you're already breaking your integrity to deliver the author's story properly to the other audience.

I don't believe translation is about everything easy for readers. When someone reads a translated novel, there are bound to be some cultural and contextual differences where the readers will have to learn and ease into these differences. This shows that they are learning about other cultures. Translating the story over is minimum, but conveying the setting properly along with the context is important too. Do you honestly see no problems using 'meters' in the Tang Dynasty?

Ultimately, it boils down to the same question I asked you. Do you think that the units of measurement the Chinese have been using for over a thousand years are of significance?
If your answer is no, then obviously you would have no qualms translating them into imperial units of measurement, which again, as I've stated, poses yet another problem known as 'anachronism'.

It's the same with the qipao too. It's because people think that it's culturally significant that they don't try to translate it into 'Chinese dress' or anything else (well, at least those who think it is significant)

 

It is a false equivalence. Clothing and measurements are not the same.
I already made the point with a Samurai, it is not translated as Japanese Swordsman.
I guess we are lucky that Japanese translators do not leave behind Japanese measurements oh wait tatami lol.

And I beg to differ, it should be easy for readers, Ease of access is important.
Putting barriers for readers is counterproductive.
Also, we are talking about YY novels, I thought the attraction was that they are easy reads

PS: I self studied and cun is not ancient measurement, it is still used as a modern Chinese unit

PS 2 Dont take this thread too seriously. I make them all the time. I have given up on reading Chinese novels because to me this is a deal-breaker. I don't read Japanese novels either
https://forum.novelupdates.com/threads/no-wonder-japanese-novel-translations-have-a-bad-rep.88608/

 

If you consider anachronism "just wrong", then there is absolutely something wrong with using mu, li, zhang, etc. in an ancient Chinese or medieval Chinese (you mentioned Tang dynasty in another comment) setting since those are Mandarin pronunciations and Mandarin did not exist in the Tang (or any prior) dynasty. You would need to use Middle Chinese pronunciations for a story set during the Tang. So for example, mu(畝), using Baxter's reconstruction, would be muwX or just muw if you want to drop the tone mark. Li (里) would be liX or li (incidentally the same as hanyu pinyin), and zhang (丈) would be drjangX or drjang.

But even then, I fail to see how you are preserving the Chineseness of the original by merely transliterating it using the Latin alphabet. Your main point has merit, but translation-dodging is not the answer. There are still ways you can translate them.

Mu (畝) means "field" (or specifically, the ridges of earth between fields), which it turns out is also exactly what "acre" means (acre comes from Old and Middle English). So what's wrong with acre? But maybe you feel since the term is already used in another Western system, it is inappropriate here. Alright, then why not just use "fields"? But the nice thing about "acre" is it signifies to the reader at once that it is a unit of measurement and not just literal fields.

Zhang (丈) could be staves or rods, since both are real terms in English for measuring devices, and 丈 is cognate with 杖 (walking stick, staff). "Ten-foot" is another I have seen, since it's ten "feet" (尺)

Li (里) is not as convenient. But up to the Tang it was equal to 300 步 (paces, actually double-paces), and I have seen it translated as tricent (lit. 300) for that reason. Though if anachronisms are wrong then you couldn't use tricent for a story in the Tang dynasty since a 里 then was changed to equal 360 步 .

Bu (步) can be paces as I mentioned already. Actually it's technically the length of two paces, hence "double-pace", but I think pace is good enough. Or steps.

Cun (寸) I have seen described as referring to the width of the thumb or the width of the middle finger at the knuckle. You could use "thumbs" or "knuckles" if you wanted. SInce it's the tenth part of a 尺 you could even call it a decimal or tithe or make up something similar.

Chi (尺) was the distance from the thumb to middle finger in one explanation I have seen, which is similar to the "span", the distance from the thumb to pinky. IIRC I have translated 尺 as "span" in the past. This would at least let you keep the hand associations rather than using "foot". You could also use "ruler" since that's also what a ruler was called. Fun fact about 尺, during the Tang dynasty, a 寸 was 1.2 inches, and since there's ten in a 尺, that means a 尺 during that period was the same as the imperial foot.

In any case, there are options. Not translating it at all and just writing it in pinyin is certainly not preserving any cultural significance though, and as we can see from the above examples, there is nothing particularly unique about the Chinese way of measuring. They used hands, sticks, fields, feet, etc., the same things every culture around the world used to measure things.

If you want to preserve unique culture, then surely "dragon", which you have translasted in your webnovels for 龍, and "emperor" for "皇[帝] are more significant losses than translating 尺 as foot.

 

It's kind of funny, I actually find Li, Mu and Zhang fine but Shi chen feels like it's pushing the limit.

 

I feel like keeping the technical units is fine since they help make the setting feel more realistic but that's it. Maybe things like sensei or xiao since calling people teacher or little *insert name* doesn't really sound right. I do agree that I don't want the translators to overdo it but keeping some is still fine with me. I mean, imagine if you were reading a historical novel and the shopkeeper counts things in kilograms, it just doesn't sound right!