Discussion I am tired of people complaining about sexism in harem novels

But i am not seeking approval from strangers on the internet though. Like i said in the other comment i knew what i was getting into, i knew my opinion and what i am about to say is gonna be disagreed by the majority as it ain't obliged with general consensus, i would have been seeking approval if my post was actually complaining about sexism like those weekly posts we have here as everyone agrees with it. This post might still have been seeking approval if i had just left after making post but here i am arguing with everyone and defending my point! I mean it is pretty obvious this post wouldn't have escalated this far if it was just simply seeking approval, i knew the moment it is gonna be shitstorm when i posted this thread

 

What's the point in making an argument if you aren't seeking approval? Literally the purpose of arguing. I guess you're just ranting?

Well, whatever. Harems are trash to begin with so you're half-right in saying that expecting something good from them is dumb. On the other hand, the people you're arguing against - the ones tired of sexism in the harem genre - are also right. Just because the genre is filled with trash doesn't mean it has to be trash. All that's needed is a good author willing to write a good story. Of course, it's a harem so the difficulty probably isn't worth it.

After re-reading your OP, I've noticed that it's... fairly sexist in itself. At the very least, it, or you for that matter, seem to be quite ignorant. Why can't a female reader comment on harem stories? Likewise, what's wrong with male readers commenting on reverse-harems? A target audience doesn't restrict who can read and enjoy it; that's just marketing. It's not cringe.

I think you need to a step back and respect that other people have their own opinions about things. I don't see anything wrong with people expecting or wishing for better from things they love - especially when you yourself agree that, in this case, harem novels are simple, trashy, wish-fulfilment novels. Harem novels may not be realistic portrayals of an irl harem, but is it too much to ask for an author to write one like that?

 

Then why would i invite people who are clearly against my opinion just take a one look at this thread and you can tell how much people actually agrees or disagrees.

I don't get it, this is another response that twists my original post and makes it sound way worse. Did i imply anywhere that "female readers can't comment on harem stories"? There's big difference between what i said which was "it is just cringe to ask a female reader's opinion on harem stories" because the answer at least 95% of the time is gonna be obvious they don't like because of portrayal of women in such stories likewise how it is stupid to ask a man what he thinks of reverse harem when also men rarely ever do read reverse harem too so their answer is gonna be obvious.

Why no one ever says that when people are making complaining threads of harem? Rarely i ever see a comment disapproving the OP only now when i made a complaint about people complaining that people riled up on me saying "people have their own opinions about things" which is the probably the hundred time i am hearing this. This is why there is bias and double standards!

 

Some of ya'll just adding to the fire. Agree to disagree?

 

Good harem novels do exist, but they are extremely rare.

 

It's fine if people want to complain. People should complain. What you are doing is complaining about people complaining, which is the same as saying people shouldn't give their opinions. Which is the same as censorship. Which is not okay!

I understand your intent probably isn't to censor people, but by making this thread, you're dismissing their opinions as "extremely dense and dumb". You haven't really provided an opinion on anything, and I'm still not sure if you agree or disagree with how women are portrayed in harem novels. It seems all you want is to rant and to start a fight :|

 

I get that you are irritated and want to rant, but those threads are not nearly as one-sided as you make them out to be, a lot of them devolve into flame wars because there is usually people with opposing opinions in them.

 

I said "i am tired of people complaining" not people should stop having an opinion. And just like the rest you are twisting my statements and putting words in my mouth for things i have never said. I want elitism to end which i said in the original post just because i like harem novel doesn't mean you are above me! I have said so many other things which you decided to ignore because it didn't suit your narrative. I thought i could have meaningful conversation here but yea lets just end here.

 

But what about those of us who are tired of the way all these harems are literally rehashes of each other? They are so lacking in originally that for all intensive purposes, they may as well be the same story (irregardless of the slightly varied hair clips and colours that they pretend make them unique). A lot of people try to escape goat the misogyny that is rife in the genre, but that's not the real problem, but merely a symptom of the disease called "being a lazy copy-cut".

I liked harems at first, but after seeing a few I noticed how it was populated the the exact same tropes -the same cliches and characters- that people can't see the forest in the trees.

• Oh look, a beach episode (bonus points for watermelons or part timing at someone's beachside cafe)!
• Oh look, a housing horror/maid cafe cultural festival!
• Oh look, childhood friend is a feisty girl and the MC forgot his pinky promise they made as kids!
• Oh look, magical aphrodisiacs to justify r*ping a woman and getting off scott free!
  
• Oh look, he saw her naked/saved her from bandits/whatever and now she has to marry him!
• Oh look, he bought a slave, but he's totally a good buy so she loves him and doesn't want to be free!

If you like em? Good for you, but as they say, one man's treasure is another man's trash.

 

Isn't the point of arguing to seek approval from the other person? You argue because you have differing opinion and want to correct theirs right?

 

Please try to read some of the posts on this thread before responding as i have literally answered this question 4 times already. You guys need to come up with something original even the thinking emote is the same!

 

I have read them

 

This is a problem I see all too often with bad writers. They don't appreciate the importance of characterization so they just settle for writing basic archetypes instead. It's the reason why so many books are filled with stale characters with stock interactions. I don't think that it's even a case of lazy copy-paste. Instead, I think that these writers either don't know better or don't care about improving their skills.

It doesn't have to be like this. The harem novels I like tend not to do any of this stuff. Instead, they're filled with layered characters who have great interactions with one another.

 

all novels are wish-fulfillment

 

Surprisingly, many people find this point hard to accept.

 

Maybe because it is not actually true.

 

Before I go into my in-depth reply, I'll just give a quick summary.

I hate anything that has extremely unrealistic characters (somewhat unrealistic characters are fine), especially if they are not well-developed and are just a random one-dimensional trophy that gets forgotten after a few chapters.

I'll complain about any novel that has poorly developed characters~

Often times those novels have much better developed male characters than stories with male protagonists have.

And when the characters in the reverse harem are poorly developed, I'll complain about them too.

Guess what? I also complain about the "perfect guy" ML in shoujos, as well as the "Ruthless and mean guy, that has a soft spot for the FL and only the FL", I hate those too.

Rather, the portrayal of men in Shoujo is 90% of the reason why there is a big fanbase of GL and BL, because Shoujo fans got tired of those terrible love interests and wanted a new take on Shoujo, so they found a slightly different genre that usually had better characters in it.

Blame the author for making bad characters, I reserve the right to thrash novels with bad characters~

I still demand good characters within Wish-fulfillment. You can put a self-insert all you want in the MC, and you can still make them get a big harem filled with girls that love him, that does not excuse you from making those girls feel like real people that have their own reasons of existence aside from following the MC and frolicking around him.

And if you don't do that, I'll be sure to complain about it~

If I feel like they're being sexist, I'll call them out too! And you can as well!

Reverse Harems usually aren't sexist though. Rather, often times the girl is in a medieval setting and is still in a lower social position than the male love interests due to the difference in treatment that their genders received back in those days... So... Yeah, it usually isn't sexist.

But if it were, I reserve the right to complain about them as well! I want good characters, not stereotyped characters! ^^)/

Sure~

Tensei Shitanode is one. Bakarina is another. Shini Yasui is the 3rd.

I don't read much Reverse Harem, I actually had to think hard to remember 3 novels with it actually... But you know what? I can name a lot more Harem stories that have good characters that I genuinely enjoyed.

I don't mind harem, I complain only about poorly made harem.

Those are not the majority of women, those are just dumb women.

Also, that's not what Feminism stands for. Feminism cares about bridging the gender gap legally (A goal already achieved in most of the Western society), and making a change in the way genders are viewed so that people aren't treated worse just because of their gender. (A much much harder goal that will probably take many generations to be achieved)

As in, feminism wants women to go to a mechanic and be treated as a person, not as a dumb woman that knows nothing about motorcycles and that is definitely wrong about her assessment of what is wrong with her motorcycle... Even when she is right because she actually knows about motorcycles.

It is all about equal treatment, the only people that try to invert the power structure are dumb people. Feminism is sadly misrepresented by a vocal minority of idiots that don't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't make the whole movement as idiotic as the handful of vocal people that talk stupid things about it.

 

Psst alright here you go *some females.
But feminism has become a political weapon more than a movement. And any legal things are to give more priority or reserved seats, and that just makes each other more distant. They should should keep more of that stuff in schools where the age is right to teach them not to differentiate.

 

Tensei Shitanode:- "I guess. It started off strong but after awhile it seemed to just be about the hunky underaged boys. Which is fine, the MC is a little girl too, but then it gets kind of creepy when the one that seems to be the main hunky boy is eight years older than her and fell in love with her when she was four. Ew ew ew. Eighteen year old man creeping on a ten year old girl is Not Cool." These are not my words, since i rarely read reverse harem so don't expect me to read them first and then reply to you, i am gonna trust reviewer's words on this

Bakarina:- "the author is also pushing it too far for creating the harem where every single character, man or woman, are made to fall in love with the MC. The biggest flaw in this novel is that the author stretching the story too much but without giving a proper character development. Yes. It has zero character development for the MC and very little happened for the other characters as well." So i guess it also suffers from your typical harem syndrome

Shini Yasui Kōshaku Reijō to Shichi-nin no Kikōshi:- Also has male yandere + Dense protagonist+ misunderstandings. Did you think you are just gonna randomly pick three names and i won't bother to at least read the tags and reviews?

It is kinda pointless and makes you feel like talking to a wall if you are gonna proceed to read harem novel that you are obviously gonna hate and is targeted towards men. Unless you actually read those then you can prove me wrong!

I can also name you great harem stories where female leads aren't 1D and have actual characters! Musoku Tensei, the story has only three female characters in the harem beautifully developed over the course of 20 volumes, none of the female or even side characters disappears into the background. Just because you say only reverse harem usually treats its characters better that doesn't mean it goes same for the harem category too, you are extremely biased in this case. It feels you are basically talking what you hear from others who rants on and off on the internet!

Something we can agree, i hate dense protagonists who takes forever to come to a decision when the harem members are literally giving the MC straightforward hints, i hate them with every fiber of my being!

 

I don't deny that some idiots are using the movement for the wrong cause. I'm just saying you shouldn't judge it because of said idiots.

Medieval setting, whoever wrote this is an idiot. A 30 years old could marry a 12 years old and it would still be fine.

It's not my fault the review writer lacks basic reading comprehension? Saying Bakarina characters have 0 character development? Geez, wtf?

What's next, gonna tell me that all Xianxias are masterpieces and that Tolkien writes novels with 0 description and that flow really easy?

That's the level of nonsense in this review. Geez.

Because those 2 tags certainly will lead to the trope you mentioned above...? No it won't.

You just cherry picked the bad reviews and then judged another by the tags just to justify your point. That's pretty petty.

I read Nejima and enjoyed it very much.
I also read Love Hina and had loads of fun with it.
I also read Knights of Sidonia, which had a harem of girls that fell for the MC for no reason, which kinda bothered me... But I still really liked it because the love interests were very well developed even if their romantic interest for the MC came out of nowhere and for basically no reason.
And if you feel like considering it a harem (highly debatable), I also enjoyed Ramma 1/2 a lot.

I'm perfectly fine with reading harems, they can be very fun if done right. They just annoy me when they have terrible characters.

I have no reason to hate harem novels. I have all the reason to hate harem novels with trashy characters.

I never said all harem novels had bad characters? Nor did I say only Reverse Harem treats its characters better... Whose words are you putting in my mouth?

I said I complain about novels with bad characters, not about harem novels. If the harem novel has bad characters, then I'll complain as much as I want.

As long as the author gives proper development to the characters, I'm happy.

See? You also complain about harem! And just like you do, I can complain about it too!

If it's poorly made, it deserves all complaints it can get! >.<