LCD I Shall Seal the Heavens

Discussion in 'Latest Chapter Discussion' started by Mousa4, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    For the longest time, I thought this was called
    I SHALL SHATTER THE HEAVENS.
    Novel grew stale like every other novel over 500 chapters for me
     
  2. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    You are totally allowed to do that. You haven't finished reading everything so it is sort of the only thing you can do if you want to discuss anything on the LCD of a completed novel.
    All I'm saying is you haven't seen the whole picture yet. Our opinions are changed by seeing it all while yours is formed by seeing only what you have so far.

    The laws of Karma are unique in Issth. They play a far larger role than in any other Xianxia I have read.
    I will wholly admit that sometimes the rules of karma apply in one situation and didn't apply in the same way to another. This is I assume to help the story move along.
    I say this to say that yes the whole karma system has holes in it in some places.

    Once you get to the part where Meng Haos past is explained and his parents role on his past then I am sure even if you do not totally forgive them they won't be bastards anymore lol. There is a lot of backstory to read yet and a lot of difficult realities thrown around to his family.

    As for Xu Qing I dont remember much about her beyond the big events so I went comment about her since I am sure I won't be wholly accurate in my recounting.
     
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  3. Kiriima

    Kiriima Well-Known Member

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    The major problem with laws of Karma in ISSTH is actually pretty open. Helping people counts for them to work, but! killing them does not! for any reason, be it good, bad, evil or not! Up until 800 chapter I am yet to stumble across any mentioning that sowing bad Karma (killing people) would return to you or something.
    That is why I can't treat it seriously. For some reason, doing good things apply to you possibility or even necessity to reap consequences but doing bad things count for nothing at all! Even blatant genocides are nothing!

    Such laws are not a setting design, but just a plot mechanic. Although It looks epic and all when the author suddenly mentions them.
     
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  4. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    I haven't read this for awhile so anyone feel free to correct me.

    But to me in ISSTH Karma always felt like something that was deliberate. The only time it was natural was in it use of your tribulations. Other than that it is seemingly a tool that is really devoid of morality. Everyone always spoke about how we have Karma and i am now going to reap it. No one really ever said You have sowed Bad Karma with me and i am now going to reap it.

    To me it always seemed to be grey on the black/white scale of good and evil and whether it was bad or good Karma is entirely dependent on the view of the person thinking on it.

    That's just me though.

    And i agree, devices like this are often modified making them convenient for the plot instead of a immutable law. Makes it easier to write especially when your book is so long that you can't realistically foresee ever situation and variable you may need to account for.
     
  5. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Karma doesn't return to you, it forms a link.
    The Ji clan currently rules the heavens. They practice "karma cultivation" where they literally capture and eat people with high karma to create a swarm of karma around themselves which is represented by white threads which they use for attack and defense. An abuse they can get away with because their patriarch is the current ruler of that particular world and is basically God there. Making the rules.

    The MC practices a different form of karma. Where he can latch unto the threads of his interactions with people and vastly intensify them. Allowing him to do all kind of things to them.

    The name "I shall seal the heavens" is not a coincidence. The heavens is the enemy here. Because the heavens is people who put the interest of their clan first.

    Besides which, the whole "what goes around comes around" interpretation of karma is just westerners misinterpreting the term. It was never like that in the source mythology
     
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  6. Kiriima

    Kiriima Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunate Er Gen never clarified the exact working of karma (yet). Obviously his interpretation of karma differs from the eastern cause, you know, in his setting it actually exists.
    Second, what I did read in novel was very western interpretation of 'sowing' and then 'reaping' of karma. MH first got gifts from Divine Crow tribe and later he helped them back. Yes, he did it on his own and not because the karma made him in some way, but the western interpretation still glowed brightly there.
    Third, I did read about MH parents backstory already. And... it sucks. Mostly because it sounds like pure plot-made-up bullshit. Am too lazy to even prove it. I call them involuntary bastards from now on while waiting for the actual (or at least more full) reasons being revealed.
     
  7. Nepuko

    Nepuko 『Ultimate Senior』

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    Still wondering who the old fisher that gave vibes of not being from ISSTH timeline MH met in the Vast Expanse was....the one saying that he understood that the Demon is the end...or something..IIRC he was described as green-skinned with a single horn on his forehead, suspiciously similar to MH's Demon Sovereign's looks.......
     
  8. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    The only time "sowing karma" and "reaping karma" is used is in PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. As in, "I will scratch your back (sow karma with YOU PERSONALLY) and you will eventually return the favor". Alternatively "I will help you now (sowing karma), which justifies me murdering you later to advance my cultivation (reaping karma)"

    The western interpretation is that you earn positive karma by doing nice things to people and then get random good luck. Which is not only completely different from the original interpretation, but also completely different from how it is used in this story specifically

    the ONLY time karma is not used as a personal 1 on 1 thing. Is when it is used as destiny, where it is still sorta 1 on 1, but you can steal it. Aka, a karma thread connects a destined person to a piece of gear... but karma mages sever said karma and attach one from themselves, allowing them to bypass magical defenses on it that are meant to ensure only the chosen one gets it.
     
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  9. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    It's nether, actually. When Meng Hao first comprehends karma in ch 515, he gives the example, "My arrival was the sowing of Karma. The reaping of that Karma was the death of the Golden Crow." That is not a quid pro quo. By his own words, "Karma is about cause and effect." Any cause and effect relationship qualifies as karma. A quid pro quo is a very specific and limited type of karma under that definition.

    @deathbladesjz I was rereading ISSTH and encountered something in ch 589 that I was hoping you could clarify. Zhixiang tells Meng Hao, “As for the names of these two great Holy Lands, one is Fang, and the other… is a name that cannot be spoken out in the world without incurring great calamity. As of now, we can only say Ji!” Does Er Gen follow-up on that? It sounds like the Ji clan should have another name, but I do not recall it coming up again.
     
  10. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Your example just shows a third possible use by the author (cause and effect). It does not nullify the countless explicit uses of karma by the author where it is being used as the two different things I stated (1. destiny 2. quid quo pro).

    My point was that this story had exactly 0 examples of karma being "righteousness points you earn by doing good things which improve your luck" as it is so commonly misrepresented in western media. And then I gave 2 different methods in which the author handled karma which differ from the above.

    So, thank you for showing a 3rd example of how the author uses karma. But it doesn't make my statement wrong, merely incomplete. If anything your 3rd type example helps support my argument
     
  11. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    I agree with your rebuttal of the so-called Western definition, but I disagree with the definition you gave. As I mentioned, your examples are specific cases of the earlier definition Er Gen gave. You are extrapolating a definition from a set of examples which my quote contradicts. That is why I pointed out that your limited definition is incorrect.
     
  12. Nepuko

    Nepuko 『Ultimate Senior』

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    @mrttao and @chencking you're actuall both kinda right,with chencking being more right. And a bit wrong too. I agree with chencking, mrttao your exemples are specfic cases and you generalize it.

    1st : @mrttao. Destiny isn't about Karma it's about fate. The fact that Pill Master took Meng Hao as a disciple for exemple wasn't because they were linked by Karma threads in their past lives or something. Karma is a part of Fate, one of its gears, or so I believe. Tho your exemple of someone being bound by Karma to an object in his past live may encounter the object again in his new life, don't generalize it to "destiny". Karma affects destiny but it's not destiny. It can't be "used as destiny".

    2nd: The "sowing" and "reaping" of Karma isn't only done in personal relationships. It's as @chencking said, and as stated in ISSTH, "Karma is about cause and effect". @mrttao , why are you separating qui pro quo with cause&effect? quid pro quo is a FORM of said 'cause and effect', and again, don't generalize it.

    Karma IS about cause and effect. That's, like, THE definition Er Gen gave it in his novels.
    -Karma can be used to AFFECT destiny, but it's NOT destiny/fate. We can even say it's part of destiny, but not destiny itself.
    -Karma can be used as a qui pro quo, the "sowing and reping of Karma". But it's NOT limited to personal relationship. The sowing and reaping/qui pro quo is a part of the cause and effect. I helped you, you'll help me. I killed your parents, you killed mine. I arrived in this village, the village got destroyed. I arrive in the tribe, the golden crow dies.
     
  13. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    In that case, my phrasing was coincidentally correct. Because karma can be a component of destiny that drives a specific occurrence.

    Also, I was not referring to reincarnation. Rather on several occasions we have seen the MC find magic items that are protected until the "destined person" comes to claim them. And MC used karma severing and attacking to bypass the magical defenses.

    Fair enough about quid quo pro being a specific form of cause and effect... However it is a rather specific form of it that happens very often in the story. So it bears mentioning. Moreover, this started out as my reply to someone literally using the terms "sowing karma" and "reaping karma" to indicate a western style "morality meter that gives luck" so me specifically saying "the only time the author used those terms is when XYZ" is not me generalizing anything.

    Also, what do you mean "don't generalize it". Literally the whole point of the discussion is to come up with generalized explanations of what karma is in this story. Furthermore, I was literally being extra specific by listing quid quo pro as a thing, while you are the one who is generalizing by saying "quid quo pro is a form of cause and effect. So just say cause and effect". Cause and effect is the more general term.

    unless what you mean by generalize is "assume that all X are Z because specific example Y where X is a Z, even though sometimes X is not Z"... (eg, person X is a criminal, therefore all race Y are criminals). But this definition of generalize doesn't make sense considering i was literally listing multiple different and unrelated things that X was shown to be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  14. Nepuko

    Nepuko 『Ultimate Senior』

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    Ah sorry, it seems I was not clear enough XD. By saying "dont generalize it", I mean don't take a specific form/exemple and says 'this is what Karma's all about'. In short it's what you said here : ("unless what you mean by generalize is "assume that all X are Z because specific example Y where X is a Z, even though sometimes X is not Z"), just it's not "even though sometimes X is not Z". Z is a PART of X. They are not unrelated to Karma, they're PART of the cause&effect thing. I mean, that's the definition author and MC gave to it, it's just that we witnessed the 'qui pro quo' thing a lot. Points is, they're NOT unrelated, quiproquo is but a part of the bigger gear that's Karma/cause&effect. While you were clearly separating them in your earliers comments :" 1. Destiny 2.qui proquo 3.cause&effect". Cause&effect is a (big) part of Destiny, while qui pro quo is a part of cause&effect (karma). That's what I was trying to get through.


    About the destiny thing, here's where you were wrong :"Is when it is used as destiny". Not AS destiny, it can affect it, but it's not destiny itself.

    And about the western thing, ofc I agree with you.

    In short that's why I said you were right, but a bit wrong too.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  15. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. glad we cleared it up
     
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  16. TheZephyrStorm

    TheZephyrStorm Rock God

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    Ok y’all, I’ve been rereading this novel and lord fifth was just introduced and I gotta say, I feel robbed. I remember the big shock when he was introduced in my first read through but this time, I already knew what to expect. Also, the early chapters of this book are a bit rough to read. However, when lord third is introduced, the quality significantly rises, and when fifth is introduced, it rises another level. I completely forgot how they had third turn into a pile of spirit stones and rob everyone or the first robbery of Meng Hao and fifth. God, I missed these three. Bravo to Er Gen for giving such great chemistry to these three characters.
     
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  17. Lokumi

    Lokumi 『The second greatest trash of society』

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    Ahah this scene was memorable, now I want to reread too..
     
  18. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Ah, good ol lord filth, i mean fifth.

    Technically he was always there... MC just didn't know why monster butts exploded when he pointed the mirror at them.
     
  19. Zombielord

    Zombielord Well-Known Member

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    The best scene was when Meng Hao gave Lord Third 5 bullies when he promised to give 3. And since Lord Third could only count up to 3 he counted 1,2,3 1,2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  20. TheZephyrStorm

    TheZephyrStorm Rock God

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    That scene was a classic.

    Lord Fifth is about to start his church in the western desert and I’m so ready. I wonder when the cool Karma wiping of a Meng Hao is going to happen. You know, where the Ji clan tries to wipe him from his existence and everyone who loves him tries their hardest to remember him but can’t and then the karma wave gets to Ahui Dongliu and he’s just like “fuck off Ji clan” and the attack just reverses and goes away
     
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