Spoiler I Swear I Won’t Bother You Again!

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by Shizun, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. LockedPuppet

    LockedPuppet From the void, the circus horns~

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    Honestly @theilikepie ? I'm in the same camp with you with Maryjun.

    There's been nothing to really indicate she's been insincere about how she feels towards Violette and as we've seen from the first few chapters her naivete isn't an act either. I want to point out, one of the first things Maryjun is known to have done in the story is being the only person in her family to save Violette from death row despite the fact that she tried to kill her.

    You know, this phenomenon seems to be pretty widespread. First Jennette, now MJ? Let's call it something, shall we?

    I propose Jennette Syndrome: When a character who would usually be the protag in another story is seen as a "white lotus" despite genuinely being as innocent as they appear.

    I'm a bit opposite of your thought that Violette is trying to improve though (at least up until the new chapters). I feel like instead of trying to confront her need for affection in a healthy manner, she's just kind of given up/trying to run away from it. Especially her wanting to join a monastery- from her own narration it feels less so that she wants to go to a healthier environment and more like that she wants to shut herself away from the rest of the world (iirc monasteries tend to be rather isolated). It's why I can't see the Nun ending as a happy one.

    Yulan is still very very bland imo. I stand by my statement- he lacks any notable or interesting traits outside of his love for Violette. If he were to act against her Family, considering that it looks like Vio's relationship with MJ may improve, I'd be interested to see her reaction if he ever hurts her sister.
     
  2. theilikepie

    theilikepie Well-Known Member

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    Jeanette syndrome sounds good lel.

    I legit forgot about the death row thing. But there were still people arguing really early in in the thread that she should have gotten her out of jail too. As if she had the authority so I let that argument go

    By improving I mean she seems to let go of her feelings of hate. But i agree. Becoming a nun wont be good for her mental health. She would implode in on herself

    Yea yulan eh. Hes your typical yandere who only gives a shit about the MC, the whole world could burn for all he cares ect ect. Nothing new but hes a safe option. Im used to mediocre MLs by now. Also you bought up a great point. People expect MJ to speak up against her family but yulan ain't going shit either and he knows whats going on + has higher standing

    Is he trying to isolate Vio completely, have her breakdown so he could have her all to himself and have her depend on him only? Who knows
     
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  3. LockedPuppet

    LockedPuppet From the void, the circus horns~

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    I agree that the argument about Maryjun not getting Violette out of jail doesn't make any sense especially form a political perspective.

    Violette proved to be a direct threat to the life of a future queen that type of treason is HUGE. The scandal that would unfold if they let her off scott-free would be tremendous, and it's only likely that Violette got off as well as she did because of her relatively high status, her relation to Maryjun, and Maryjun's own pleas.

    Even then, Maryjun is marrying into royalty, there's only so many strings she'd be able to pull.
     
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  4. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    @LockedPuppet
    @theilikepie


    Both of you need to go back and read the spoilers/mtls of that event. It was never that she didn't/couldnt get her out of jail

    MJ WANTED HER IN JAIL DUE TO JUSTICE BONER

    We had her go on endlessly about sin and sinners while Yulan was arguing with her.

    She also did nothing to help bring Marine's testimony that was being suppressed to light.

    I understand that this is a ridiculously easy novel to miss things in.The most important parts get a line or two while you get entire chapters about the taste of tea, or the furniture. They are still there and people have both noted and discussed them.

    It's really bad form to try revisit them and skew them without bringing something new to the discussion
     
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  5. theilikepie

    theilikepie Well-Known Member

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    You mea this???

     The arrest of Violet was like a current offender. Someone of the servants noticed the screams and noises of Mary Jun, and they were captured as they were. It is clear that she is a single offender who has a planless short-circuiting crime, a runaway with an urge, and the police officers, while impressing the interview with the concerned parties, think that the contents do not matter if the form is adjusted. ing. Otherwise, Marin's desperate story of the Verhan family couldn't be leaked anywhere.

    Yeah I have no clue what thays saying. But nowhere did it say MJ suppressed it. Seems to me the police just refused to listen. And what testimony would let Vio get out of jail even after trying to harm future royalty. In any way possible that is the death penalty. I'm assuming the thing Marin wanted to tell what a bastad her dad ad mom were whcih causes her to snap

    Well even in modern courts of Democratic countries that wouldn't make a difference in the case. It's called a crime of passion

    "Yurin, I also want to help my sister. That's why my feelings are so great, I understand. I want to do anything for an important person... But that's why I should not turn my eyes off my sins. I don't think so"


    "I'm very aware that you loved Violet, and let me know. She's... a sinner."


    "I want you to face each other and pay for your sins. Isn't that really for your sister...?"


    And the other sentence is understandable. Vio tried to kill her and harrassed her. Of course she want her to face some sort of punishment. And she wasnt the one who said keep her in jail. She just agreed with what Prince dude said. But we can still tell she loved her when she got her off the death penalty.

    Wanting the person who almost killed you to face some sort of punishment is not a justice boner.

    I can't believe I have to say that. If MJ was the protagonist you would not be saying that. Heck you'd probably want the death penalty for vio too.

    Again your really assuming so much off of two sentences while wilfully ignoring countless heaps of evidence and passages that are in her favor. Nitpicking
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  6. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    Nice misdirect no what was suppressed with Marine was the history of abuse Violet suffered.

    But do tell, Just how is wanting someone to rot in prison till they die consistent with really loving them?

    Maryjun quite simply is acting according to her internal story. She doesn't respond to outside input and she has no ability to understand the harm she does. Where this goes from here is anyone's guess, but my bet would be she's going to say more stupid impossible things that are devoid of any yhought
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  7. theilikepie

    theilikepie Well-Known Member

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    Eve if Marin did bring up the abuse shed still go to jail. That's literally what I said. No misdirection there

    There are exact cases where thats happened on modern courts. See gypsy rose.So the abuse one wouldnt have lifted the charges at all. And I dont think MJ knew about the abuse so she coudnt have argued using that

    She was gonna get executed she did save her from that. You can still love someone and want them to get punishment for what they did. Parents have turned there own kids to the police. The parents oblviualy still care for there kids

    In MJs mind Prison was a better alternative then death and probably the lightest one she could get

    Look ar MJs pov. Her sister harrsed her for a year and tired to kill her. She has no background information about the abuee so shes probably scared and still loves her. She wants her to get punishment too but not that harsh. So she does the best thing she can do and convinces them to lift the death penalty
     
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  8. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    MJ loved violet she saved her life in the 1st TL
    uhmm she wanted her in prison where Violet ultimately suicided
    MJ DINDU NUTTING WRONG SHE WAS BULLIED

    A little internal consistency would be nice, especially when you excuse MJ's actions because she's a stupid kid but Violet who's a victim of abuse must be punished
     
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  9. theilikepie

    theilikepie Well-Known Member

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    This but unironically. Glad we could finally agree
     
  10. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    Well kind of figured this was the heart of your logic system
     
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  11. Rainbowroad

    Rainbowroad New Member

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    made an account to say

    SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MARYJUN
    SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MARYJUN

    HOLY SHIT WE TALK ABOUT HER MORE THEN THE DAMN STORY PLEASE JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP PLEASSSEEE
     
  12. theilikepie

    theilikepie Well-Known Member

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    dd0.png
     
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  13. ATrueStory

    ATrueStory Villainesses, Historical Shit, Noble Circuses

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    A variation of this? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsBoring
    From the page:
    The character is simply good, boring and... not much else. They either exist to be a moral compass to the other characters, be a foil to a villain or anti-hero, show that boring might not be so bad after all, or perhaps to be a plot device and cause the villain to overgeneralize this trope.
    -End cite-
    I made my opinion clear on these type of characters. I just does not see these type of characters as entertaining, interesting or dynamic. So any talk of characters of these types usually gets a sigh from me. Sure, use them as a poster girl/boy for morality in a fiction. I am not proposing them to be written off. She might be really good. But there is also something like too good to be true and in some ways, it feels like a trap. Note, I am not saying it is in this story. I dunno if its really like that coz we don’t have any more material to come by. However, being suspicious of ‘good’ has been the norm in stories and real life.
    Also, I guess being the poster person (I’m attempting to be neutral here) is also a double edged sword. If you are moral or claim to be one, you have to live a standard and people expect you to be consistent. One ‘fall from grace’ is just enough for people to judge. I think it often apples to MaryJun. She projects this personality so the readers expects that personality to be consistent. We see her kind, confident and friendly to Vio but when she projects the opposite to Yulan and others, it creates a gap of consistently and it makes her suspect. You could argue that a personality should be dynamic. That is correct for people, as in real people. However, it should be the somewhat reverse when creating characters. Consistency in a character is a big deal, so much that there are tropes and types. Sure, you can write some deviation from a trope but too much gives me as a writer headaches and I doubt anyone who writes wants that just for one character.
    I guess this is the part where I kinda put out my personality type and say that maybe I am one of those people who really want to shut the world out. For me, the Nun route is still happy one since it is an ultimate rejection of society, cutting ties and relationships, and a semblance of getting control. For me, Vio has no control from the get go, form her childhood to her current situation. This trickled down on her personality and with her current life, this is the reason why she still feels trapped. I don’t think she will blow up due to isolation, maybe she will find some sense of comfort of being herself with no judgment, whether they made by other people or her own. I cannot tag Vio as an introvert but maybe she developed into one , seeing the context of her childhood. Nun route is basically the extreme way of expressing it but it doesn’t mean she cannot be happy if she really find value in it. Of course, gramps showing up in the spoilers means more politicking and schemes and what not. If I were Vio, the anxiety and stress alone is enough reason to tell people, ally or not, to eff off and leave me be.
    For me, it’s actually MaryJun as secondary character who has control. She is the center of her family, and apart from social and financial side of things, she seems to be pretty protected form the ills of this story.

    My popcorn is ready for cooking and maybe, he can provide some fireworks. If you’re proposing that situation, you’re really pushing Vio for more isolation in my opinion. Its just like the OG timeline. She has nobody to trust and improvement of her relationship with Maryjun doesn’t yet constitute as a guarantee considering that the adults in the room are either protecting Maryjun to the hilt (the parents) or treats her as suspicious (gramps).
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  14. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    We? What do you mean we? Guy who has put nothing into the thread?
     
  15. LockedPuppet

    LockedPuppet From the void, the circus horns~

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    You... didn't acknowledge any of the points @theilikepie made.

    It didn't matter the motives or the fact that she was abused Violette still tried to commit murder on a future monarch- the severity of Violette's crime was gonna get her punished no matter what and Maryjun went out of her way to lighten it as much as possible while still not letting her off the hook.

    You mention internal consistency when there's a world of a difference between Maryjun and Violette's actions. AT WORST MJ is guilty for being innocently insensitive and extremely dense, Violette harassed two people (for two different reasons) for years and then tried to murder one of them. It does not matter that Violette was a victim of abuse because she willingly chose to hurt people vs MJ being oblivious but otherwise well-meaning. I'm not saying MJ was completely blameless because she did have a hand if an unintended one in how bad things got with her sister.

    The question in the first place was whether or not Maryjun is genuinely as naive and well-meaning as she appears to be, which is definitely evident. We see that she's perfectly willing to talk things out with Violette if she thinks she's hurting her as we've seen in the last chapter and there's no reason to believe her behavior- which has been consistent from the start as well as what we've seen of her in the previous timeline- is an act.

    I just also wanna state for the record, since I saw some people confused about it at the start- The reason why MJ doesn't have a crush on Claudia and vice-versa is explicitly because Violette isn't there (unintentionally) pushing them together. According to Violette a big factor as to why the two got close in the past life was because Claudia would come to MJ's aid when Violette bullied her. They don't have those interactions in the current timeline so it's natural that their impressions and perceptions of one another would be completely different.
     
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  16. kawaii12345

    kawaii12345 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why I bother but.

    Deeply Loving Someone <> Wanting them to die in jail.

    If you can't understand that as written I don't know what to say to you.

    As to what MJ could have done? Ask yourself this what would you do now if a family member you loved had a breakdown?

    Conclusion MJ did not "Love Vio" TL1 Q.E.D.

    Current TL Vio is not bullying MJ but MJ is still crushing on Vio's Beau.

    Hmmmmmm

    What's next? Who knows, this novel has been screwed up since page 1. I have been reading it in the hope Vio grows a spine, but at the rate things have been going it wouldn't be out of bounds for Dad to repent and Yulan to wind up the villain.

    What the two of you keep missing is being an oblivious idiot only goes so far. If your car gets totaled by an airhead on their cellphone, sure it wasn't malicious but you still collect damages. MJ is of course worse than the airhead, she's off in never never land, she still has no understanding of what's happened, and is still looking at trying to create love and that perfect family out of what just isn't there.

    MJ is most certainly hurting right now, and is in frightened child mode, but really that's all. Barring plot armor or deus ex machina there's just not much to recover, and I'm willing to bet MJ can't comprehend what she wants was all in her head
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  17. neru74

    neru74 Well-Known Member

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    im still alive people
     
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  18. LockedPuppet

    LockedPuppet From the void, the circus horns~

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    I think your math is wrong, you see

    Trying to Murder a Future Monarch and Your Sister = Getting Sent to Jail or Executed

    Again I will reiterate: It DOES NOT MATTER HOW BADLY VIOLET WAS HURT. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT MJ'S OBLIVIOUSNESS PLAYED INTO IT. THE MOMENT VIOLETTE TURNED TO BULLYING AND THEN MURDER SHE LOST HER MORAL HIGH GROUND. Cool story, Still murder.

    You're completely right that obliviousness can only go so far, but how on earth did that warrant Violette trying to murder her?

    And one more thing, I think @theilikepie stated this before, but loving someone and knowing they did something terrible/pose a direct danger to those around them and must be punished are concepts that are NOT mutually exclusive. What Violette did was attack the future queen. That would have far greater and farther reaching political consequences than just MJ's death.
     
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  19. haqpiness

    haqpiness Well-Known Member

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    I'm so tired of discussions... I want to see the spoilers:blobpensive:
     
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  20. DOHere

    DOHere Well-Known Member

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    Let's at least hold off the discussion until we get more info lol
    I didn't bother reading the last two pages of comments but I almost got a headache remembering how much time I used to waste trying to prove my point on these forums and getting nowhere, but only more frustrated:blobjoy: