Kobato's defense

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by kobatochandaisuki, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. Antonyn

    Antonyn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    6
    Reading List:
    Link
    So, till I see proof positive that it was you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Last time, when you came out with the initial escalation with them, I mentioned that I thought it should have been kept between the two of you, and worked it out, outside of the public. These things are messy, and if there is legal action, all it does is muddy the waters.

    That's all I can say about this whole thing. They provided warning, that's all that is to me. If they wish to escalate it further, then that's on them and trying to prove it. Till they provide a formalized action, that's all there is.

    Till then, perhaps it is best to just say "I didn't do it, if they bring me to court, they won't be able to prove it, since it wasn't me." Any more can and will be used against you, so sometimes silence is the better part of valor.

    Good luck
     
    kenar likes this.
  2. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    526
    Reading List:
    Link
    Thank you for your kind words and advice. However, although I do respect your points, I still think staying in silence is not the better part of valor. I understand what you mean and probably you are right in many situations, but I also believe that coming out of the silence and reacting is also a better part of valor.

    It's like the millions of korean people who came out in the street and protested against the ex-president Park Geun-he. And like many other heroes and people (even ordinary ones) who did not stay speechless and unspoken to fight against the things that tried to suppress them and silence them. Or the people accused of something they did not and got incarcerated but did not let themselves go and raised their voice to say "I'm innocent". I have expressed more or less what I had but then the only pity is that MSM will (probably) go unaffected even after they have slandered against me. However, I believe in Karma. Anyway.

    Thank you once again.
     
  3. Robbini

    Robbini Logical? Illogical? Random? Or Just Unique?

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Reading List:
    Link
    This thread spiraled out a bit.

    But considering that, it's interesting how out the many users who said something on the matter, there are 3 that are firmly on MSM side and against Kobato.
    Coincidentally, they all have 2 digit amount of posts.
    Coincidentally, 2 of them have only posts about the argument between Kobato and MSM (one has maybe 90+%), this , the simultaneous from the other side of the argument and the previous thread on the matter, and the third has about 70-80% of their posts in those three threads.

    This is all just coincidental, right ?
    50+ posts on the same subject in slightly over a month is coincidence.
    70% of 30+ posts over 5 months on the same subject means they either don't spend a lot of time on the forum or just don't feel strongly about anything.

    Now I am not confirming or condemning anything, and everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, and everyone is entitled to argue freely for that opinion.
    But seeing accounts with such a focus on their posts on that specific topic of squabble between two different groups (let's calculate kobato as their own group), seemingly showing little focus on anything else, would and should raise curiousity about it.

    But seeing someone totally unrelated, with absolutely nothing to gain from the entire debate, argue vehemently for their own opinion time and time over again on two separate threads with the same arguments...

    It reminds me of some of the threads that were about qidian. With how some relatively similar accounts (new, low posts) kept mentioning the same arguments in every thread about qidian.

    This next point is interesting, because while it proves nothing, it also raises further questions.
    None of the ones i've mentioned either have entries in their reading lists, or they keep them hidden from public view.
    It proves nothing, because that's a free choice.
    But it's also interesting, because why the hell are you even here if you don't have anything in your reading lists ?

    But like I said. I am not condemning or confirming anything. However, I like statistics. And statistics like that are very interesting statistics.
    Maybe someone will take personal offence at this. That's your right. But if you're going to try and return the favor, try to atleast address the curious information I mentioned, instead of only talking about my details.

    So yes. Laterz.
     
  4. Szefowo

    Szefowo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    Reading List:
    Link
    This is first thread I become involved in (well 2 threads) because drama with group I follow is interesting. I don't see any reason to not argue on something when I agree with them, especially when I see the other side posting what amount to insane ramblings and misinformation. You can't say that kobato has been posting the most logical stuff, and his inability to not respond to mostly every comment has been drawing new users in. While everyone is free to have their own suspicions, this just sounds like more attempts at muddling the situation with irrelevant stuff. I'm not the biggest user of NU, but I used to browse forums as a guest (as most people seem to do). Don't really need to keep track of novels on here cause I can remember them myself, and the reviews are usually kinda not helpful in deciding if a novel is good or not.

    Assuming that I must be on NU to have a reading list is a stupidly meaningless jump in logic. Im glad that you like statistics, but maybe think about the different reasons people may be on NU, rather than assuming that since new or rarely active accounts post something, they have ulterior motives. I also would not be surprised if people make accounts just to involve themselves in drama like this. Just from view stats alone we can see these threads are waaay more popular than others in novel general. If you came specifically for this arguments, and you didn't have an NU account, perhaps you'd need to idk, make one?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  5. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    526
    Reading List:
    Link
    Didn't think about it but now that you mention, it really does sound suspicious.

    As a side note, I even wonder if the MSM slander and their false accusation were in fact a viral marketing (+ lower my reputation as vengeance to the lasr issue). And it's not hard to expect me to react on their launch as i always rant in my group's discord + i had bad experience because of them.
    Either they expected me, or they took the opportunity in a very good timing.
    No surprise in how well the comments slandeting me and attacking seemed quite coordinated.
     
  6. Robbini

    Robbini Logical? Illogical? Random? Or Just Unique?

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Reading List:
    Link
    Everyone is free to post as much or as little as they want to.
    I merely pointed out that virtually all posts from a few specific users was about the same topic, in two or three separate threads, with the same viewpoint and with the same arguments several times.
    Yes, it can be entirely coincidental, and have no actual connection to the matter at hand, but to be honest if it ever became a legal matter, and the legal counsel / attorney / advisor / lawyer (whichever term they use in that situation) was good at their job and really wanted to involve everyone who might've somehow been involved in the matter at hand, then someone who stands out like that would pretty much be noticed.

    I mean, if you're looking for people to ask them about their connection to something, would you go for the people who have shown interest and discussed that subject with 50 comments or someone who's discussed that subject with maybe 5-10 comments and the other 40-45 on totally irrelevant subjects?

    So in this matter, the people I hinted to but never named, would be seen as statistical anomalies or just simply put suspicious.

    As for me trying to muddle the waters... I previously gave what I considered decent advice to kobato to try and help kobato prove their own point. If this ever became a legal matter ,I would probably still give that advice and some, because in this case kobato would be the defendant.

    Is it because I trust kobato 100% ? No
    Is it because I distrust social justice on the internet ? Somewhat
    Is it because I think kobato should have a good defence as possible and therefore a fair trial ? Yes

    But on that note, you seem so interested in this matter, so maybe you could answer a question for me.
    On the 'evidence' provided by the other side, the 'original' forum posts where kobato is supposed to have said those things...

    • 'Kobato (68.183)'
    • 'Kobato (83.77)'
    • 'Kobato (162.243)'
    Could you maybe explain what those numbers actually mean ? Because none of them only occur once, it can't be a unique login number or something related to comment number.
    Would hardly be IP, because it wouldn't change that much, and the other members in those comments have none of them.
    Couldn't be something like a karma or like system, because 3 different sets can't exist at the same time.
    Basically, i'm very curious about those numbers. And why there are 3 different sets all for accounts either named as kobato or translated to kobato for some... reasons.
     
  7. Szefowo

    Szefowo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    Reading List:
    Link
    Im 99% sure it's just a user ID. Read the disclaimer at the bottom. MSM main argument is some of the things these accounts either a) contain information nobody should know other than a select few, or b) are basically copy pastes of kobato's discord post. Then someone also pointed out the coincidental timing of the two separate posts. Those are the 3 suspicious accounts.

    Also, the korean forum post was removed by the admins of the korean forum. Wonder what that means... (unless users can remove their own posts, but I didnt see option when I check out forum)
     
  8. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    526
    Reading List:
    Link
    btw, it's actually not Kobato but written ㅇㅇ in that korean forum. every comments they seemed negative for them, they changed to kobato. same for the post writer, it's ㅇㅇ (double O in korean but seems every anonymous have that as default in that forum)
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Szefowo

    Szefowo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    Reading List:
    Link
    They said that in their report... Big and red, easy to see
     
  10. CookieGaming

    CookieGaming New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reading List:
    Link
    Hello I made an account to keep my anonymity because I don't want my main account to be involved in this drama.
    But I wanted to say few things about the entire situation from a Korean's point of view.

    The comments do indeed look very suspicious but they only serve as circumstantial evidence.
    It's difficult to prove if the person speaking was indeed Kobato.

    However, it's not difficult to make 3 accounts in the Korean forum post because users can create accounts without registration.
    The account ID is designated once you set a password to comment and is based on an IP which can be changed easily.
    To illustrate how easy it is to make a comment, here is a screenshot.
    [​IMG]

    You designated your user name and password on a.
    You submit the comment by clicking b.
    Your comment shows up with the unique ID based on your IP on c.

    As you can see, it's super easy for anyone to write a comment without the hassle of creating an account.
    Email registered users will have an icon next to their name to indicate that they've completed the registration process.
    So unless you have the icon next to the name, it's difficult to prove or disprove that alt accounts were used or not.

    As for the title discussion, I've checked with the MSM discord and found that the author has indeed approved of the translations and rewrite process.
    Even in the original forum post, the author has confirmed that the novel was licensed.
    So I don't think there's much to discuss if the author has approved the translation for his work.
    [​IMG]

    Ultimately, it's really up to others to decide what to believe or not, but it doesn't seem like the situation will escalate any further.
    I honestly think this entire debacle was pointless in the sense that all that happened was name-calling.

    These are my two cents on the subject.
    As I won't be responding to other comments, please don't quote on me hoping for a response.
     
  11. dam1433

    dam1433 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    7
    Reading List:
    Link
    The only problem is Kobato's attitude. Why not focus on translating your novels? Why bad mouth other TL Group?

    Oh wait, you must have been jealous XD Again, go take a break and make an appointment with a doctor before it gets worst.
     
  12. dam1433

    dam1433 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    7
    Reading List:
    Link
    And another thing, why would people even work with Kobato anyways? If I where you, I would distance myself to this guy (or woman).

    I mean this guy has obvious attitude problem. Everybody knows that.
     
  13. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Abused Witch

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    9,821
    Likes Received:
    20,908
    Reading List:
    Link
    How can you be sure that he bad mouthed another translator group? All they have is only circumstantial evidence. If I can speak Korean, I can stalk Kobato's discord and post on that site in a way that Kobato gets blamed. But I don't speak Korean and I don't care enough about Kobato or his titles to stalk his discord.

    To be clear, I'm not talking about bad mouthing them in his discord. That's his discord, he can do whatever he likes. I'm referring to the accusation that he badmouthed them on that Korean site.

    Everyone has attitude problem. I have attitude problem. Learning to accept that people have attitudes is how one grows. I have worked for bosses who throw a tantrum every week and blamed me for their own mistakes.

    As of now, I am more inclined to believe in Kobato. I'm not on his side, but all these personal attacks, including one in your post has made me conclude that this entire incident is nothing more than character assassination. In other words, many new users with barely any posts suddenly appeared in this forum to support MSM's narrative, which is more suspicious than a man snooping around a cop. All the new users with these bare accounts do one thing, and that is to attack Kobato over and over.

    One of these new accounts have already been forum muted for harassment and personal attacks.

    Know what I think happened? Take note that Ai-chan isn't as subtle as @Robbini . Robbini gave the offending people the chance to stop with their dignity intact, Ai-chan couldn't care less.

    1) MSM was informed that Kobato dissed them in his discord.
    2) MSM thought this was the perfect moment to make Kobato look like an even bigger asshole than he normally is
    3) MSM posted anonymously in that Korean website, making it look like Kobato did it and taking Kobato's arguments about the matter.
    4) MSM then posted this alleged insult on NUF, putting up circumstancial evidence to put Kobato out of the business.
    5) MSM got a lot of "Oh, Kobato is such a douchebag" and feels good about themselves
    6) Kobato then responded. But there was not enough people who care enough or believe the MSM's story to kick down Kobato.
    7) MSM asked their sleeping members with accounts in novelupdates to pitch in as well as make their own accounts.
    8) MSM and their proxies attack Kobato, without realizing that people who cared have already switched sides because of MSM's proxies continuous personal attacks on Kobato.

    In case MSM doesn't realize it yet, this drama is damaging to both sides, both Kobato and MSM. However, it would be more damaging to MSM the longer it goes, because MSM has done nothing but push forward circumstantial evidence that they could've faked themselves. I'm sure there are audience who now think, "Just bring Kobato to court".

    But MSM knows they can't bring this to court, because they don't have evidence. They can get a lawyer to send a C&D if they pay enough, but it would be empty, because the evidence prove nothing.

    To quote one manga I particularly enjoyed so far, this whole drama can be summarized in one page of manga:

    [​IMG]

    Now, MSM proxies may feel inclined to make personal attacks on me instead, but do remember that I am not someone new that MSM's proxies can bully. One of you (MSM's proxy, I assume) has already been muted. I don't think there needs to be another, right?

    You probably think I'm on Kobato's side, but I'm not. I am more inclined to believe in his innocence now due to MSM's allegations and the continous personal attacks Kobato received. I couldn't care less about who is right, but character assassination is not cool. Don't dirty the net forum I feel at home in.

    Why I think MSM faked all this? Because I would've done the exact same thing. I have done similar things in my youth, before I learned that it's all pointless. What benefit would I get from driving someone on the net to suicide when I have a family to take care of? The pettiness still hasn't left me, though, and despite not doing it anymore, I still do make plans to destroy my competitors through massive proxy war.

    p/s: Of course, I could be wrong and everyone attacking Kobato just logged in together just to help the world burn. However, it's still not a decent move. Regardless of whether or not Kobato did do what he was accused of doing, doing personal attacks is not cool.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    Kuro_0ni, kenar, Ghost_Spawn and 3 others like this.
  14. GDLiZy

    GDLiZy Forgetful Pale Fairy

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    1,750
    Reading List:
    Link
    MSM has already locked their thread. So, I think it would be great to let bygone be bygone and lock this thread too.

    The longer it goes on, the more both sides will suffer. However, it’s up to the OP to decide.
     
  15. dam1433

    dam1433 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    7
    Reading List:
    Link
    "2) Kobato look like an even bigger asshole than he normally is"

    As a person who works with kobato. Thank you for confirming that Kobato is an asshole XD

    Now I rest my case, it seems like even kobato's staff see's him like that.
     
  16. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    526
    Reading List:
    Link
    I have answered to Ai-chan who offered the lockdown of this thread as a mediation and I have responded as below:

    "Thank you for your attention regarding the matter of the drama ongoing on NUF and also trying to do a mediation between the both parties.
    However, I have to respectfully decline as it is a personal principle not to lockdown my thread. Unless things get necro-posts, I prefer personally to have the thread open. Well, since MSM have probably told their staff and followers to not go further, there can still be trolls as you may say but i doubt there will be except maybe for [some people out there who like to drop random comments] *edited*. But then i can already tell you i will ignore any trolls. But it is somehow funny MSM decides this when they were not getting any attacks towards them while i was slandered from all parts.

    There is another reason why i do not want to lockdown. It's not that I want to see more fuel being added but I simply do not want to accept their request. They did their attack, slander me on their own but now decides as either they are done (doing their viral marketing or just attack) or saw it didn't work as much as they expected and even starts to backfire. Just hard to accept that they can end this whenever they want as much as they decided whenever to start.
    It doesn't mean that I want things to burn further but just that for those two reasons, I simply cannot accept. So I really express my gratitude and respect your kind mediation but I will have to (again, respectfully) decline this offer.
    I hope you can understand my circumstance and do not feel my declination as an offense."

    Certainly a number of people would think what I decided was not the most mature nor wisest decision but this is the conclusion i came into and decided what I felt I wanted to. It is in no way to offense anybody.

    Ultimately, trolls will be ignored but I will probably still answer to questions if no personal attacks are involved. However, i do not think much more comments will be happening anyway.
     
  17. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    526
    Reading List:
    Link
    Btw, Ai-chan is not my staff. I don't even know Ai-chan that much and I have never worked with Ai-chan.
    As for my staff, they can freely express how i am. I often say and recognize I can be an A-hole anyway.

    Just a side note, Kobato-chan is cuter than Ai-chan.
     
  18. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Abused Witch

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    9,821
    Likes Received:
    20,908
    Reading List:
    Link
    Actually, I have never worked with Kobato. I don't even read his translated titles. Back when I was a fan-translator, I worked alone mostly. And I translated Japanese novels, not Korean. I only know Kobato as the one who has unhealthy obsession with Kobato-chwan and who just can't keep quiet.

    See? Ai-chan is infinitely cuter than Kobato as everyone in the forum can testify.
     
    kenar likes this.
  19. Beholder

    Beholder New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    1
    Reading List:
    Link
    I just don't see reason for using NUF account as I mostly read.
    I misunderstood before the part with "Military clique". And felt like it was even worse than Warlord as title.

    My opinion on the matter is just that MSM should act differently without name calling as it's dick move on their side.
    I said to kobato on his discord that I'm sorry with how it ended up sounding.
    While chatting with him, there were few points mentioned that made sense from his side of things about the group (msm).
    I will just wait if there will be more going on or not.
     
  20. Robbini

    Robbini Logical? Illogical? Random? Or Just Unique?

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Reading List:
    Link
    I don't need a response for this, but i'll quote it anyway.
    To be honest, the author himself has no relevance to this situation, unless he feels personally offended by these alleged comments by kobato and wants to take part in any possible court case against kobato for supposed defamation or libel, though I have no idea how supposed kobato comments criticizing the group the author works with and a translation or word choice of the author's title would somehow qualify as enough for the author to be part of it.

    It's a nice touch, mentioning someone , but it has no actual relevance to the situation at hand nor the evidence presented.

    But you've essentially proven that their evidence is either non-existing, highly circumstancial or just showing how easily it is to forge evidence. Admittedly, you've also proven that it's so easy to have done it, that it could've been done by kobato, but to be honest, why the hell would anyone do something that idiotic and unnecessary?

    As for the whole militia / warlord / military clique translations...
    Maybe consider the situation and context at hand

    1. Miltia : If it's about a group of people who group together to defend themselves, their region and their families in that region, it could work. Militias however would never take really unnecessary risks and travel far away from their home region, so if they do that in the novel, it's a bad match, also a militia is never the size of an army, at best the size of a battalion in extreme cases.
    2. Warlord : If it's about primarily one person and their subordinates, creating their own fighting force, and then using that force to defend their own territory, prevent any uprisings against their self-claimed authority and then expand further outwards to claim more territory. If the MC doesn't claim or abuse their power to achieve the warlord status, or just never use force against anyone or anything other than self-defence, they're a bit of a bad match for being called warlord.
    3. Military clique : Is essentially groups of warlords, officers or rogue armies or just about anyone with military force, grouping together to form their own group to project their own strength better outwards or to oppose anyone trying to remove their power. If the central authority in the region (if there were countries and the situation changed somewhat) is strong and there isn't really anyone formidable opposing them, cliques would only be internally in the military, but they would probably be called factions then. But if the central authority is weak, and these officers, rebels or warlords have seized control in areas and then use their forces to keep that control, and then ally together other cliques and the central authority, then military cliques would somewhat work, especially if there are many such.
    4. Other words depending on the situation might be faction, league , alliance and some such, but I have too little information on the novel to give a choice that would suit the situation best.
     
    kobatochandaisuki likes this.