LCD Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka?

Discussion in 'Latest Chapter Discussion' started by TUSF, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. heroeric

    heroeric Well-Known Member

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    Are you just trolling since D is definitely evil. All of her actions are self-centered. In story she is a wild card that can do great acts of good or evil simply because what is most beneficial to her(most entertaining) can be both beneficial or harmful to the other factions involved.
     
  2. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    I do think he's trolling, yes, so people probably shouldn't bother arguing with him. Not considering D evil is sorta defensible, but calling Sariel evil is kind of ridiculous. Saying you hold BOTH positions? I don't believe it. Either that or he just straight up has not read the series and is just pulling details from spoilers he heard about with no context.

    Oh, and as far as Dustin not trying goes, yes he would. He's made it clear that he would kill Potimas if he could and has started numerous wars when he felt it would benefit humanity as a whole. I mean, the moment Shiro gives him a chance, he does cooperate to take him out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  3. NZPIEFACE

    NZPIEFACE Leecher

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    True, but she's also dumber than a fucking potato.

    I feel moral absolutism doesn't really work as a point of discussion in this series. We're shown that it's long past the point of no return for there to be a "good" act that can save everyone, only shades of bad and worse.

    Would you guys start lambasting me if I used the Alignment System? I feel D swings between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil, because she sticks to her own rules of what is and isn't allowed when interfering to give herself the most fun.

    Sariel is Lawful Good, since she stuck to her rules to the bitter end. It's just... you know, those rules kind of brought about a net-negative outcome to the whole place.
     
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  4. Anonymousbb

    Anonymousbb Well-Known Member

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    Liked just for this. The single best action Sariel could have taken for humanity as a whole would have been to off Potimas when she first discovered when he was doing.

    In fairness, she may have thought he was ignorant to the consequences of his actions then, so not doing that is understandable. After he became aware though? Potimas should have been killed, and the world would have long recovered without him.

    But Sariel goes so far in protecting humanity, that she is unwilling to kill a single person who actively puts all of humanity at risk for selfish reasons.
     
  5. Kphone89

    Kphone89 Well-Known Member

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    I was writing a reply to 2 replies when I read the "trolling commenter" posts.
    I haven't read the LN and this is the WN discussion. From what I've heard, there are significant differences after LN Volume 5 so I wouldn't quote each other as an absolute reference. The parallel world theory comes to mind where the worlds are similar but with varying differences, and based on the time that has past since the world was split, the more severe the differences become (butterfly effect). For certain occurrences with enough support, it's reasonable to treat them as additional details.
    For example;
    • (difference) Fei only exists in the LN.
    • (additional detail) At the vending machine flashback, the WN doesn't clue the reader what kind of facial expression and/or emotions Shun felt when observing Negishi Shouko. In the anime, its appears to be disgust.
      For this scene in the WN, I wasn't sure if he felt disgust, pity, horror, or what.

    I believe D is more malicious than evil. I'm not saying she's good-maybe chaotic neutral (or as my D&D playgroup calls it, chaotic asshole). She reminds me of Djinni from D&D with the emphasis on "the genie might try to pervert the intent of the wish by exploiting the wish's poor wording. The perversion of the wording is usually crafted to be to the genie's benefit."
    The funny part about Djinni are their alignment is Chaotic Good.

    I should be up to date with the WN. (Information from my spreadsheet)
    If the # is like Main Story 331, I've read 1-331. If the number is like Elf Village Battle 6-7, I read those 2 chapters and didn't see a similar title for 1-5 and the used or translation was changed.
    • Main Story 331
    • Sidestory/Shun 35
    • Yuusha (Julius) 2
    • Katia 2
    • Balto 2
    • Oni 19
    • Blood/Vampire 35
    • Q&A 10
    • Human-Demon Great War 5 + Secret
    • Elro Great Labyrinth Abnormality Investigation Team 3
    • Royal Capital Battle 3
    • The Labyrinth's Nightmare 4
    • The Divine Word Religion and the Goddess Religion
    • Searching for master 3 thousand miles
    • Magician, apprenticeship
    • Elf Village 3
    • Because I am a teacher
    • Before the War
    • Elf Village Battle 11
    • The regular reports of the Demon King and the Administrator
    • The Pope and the Administrator
    • The revolving lantern of the summoner
    • The rumor of the adventurer
    • Adventurers vs Ogre
    • Empire knights vs Ogre
    • Old man×2 vs Ogre
    • The Sword King and the magician
    • The Pope and the Ninja
    • The country of the interstice
    • The previous Sword Emperor
    • Sword God vs Ogre
    • Oni vs Oni 6
    • Teach us D-sensei! Lesson 4
    • The Commander’s Bad Day
    • SS Christmas
    • The Pope’s Deliberations
    • The Pope’s Torment
    • Informal Conference 9 Hidden
    • Second Informal Conference 2
    • The Demon King and the Pope
    • The Oni and the Ninja
    • The Vampire, the Oni and the Ninja
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Tagawa Kunihiko
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Kushitani Asaka and Aurel
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Merazofis
    • Before The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Ronant
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Wrath
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Sophia
    • The Human-Demon Great War – The situation of Blow
    • The Elf Leader’s Miscalculation
    • A flat chest is a status symbol!
    • The Third Informal Conference 2
    • SS - Halloween
    • Angry Oni
    • Insane Oni
    • Tipsy
    • SS - Autumn-leaf Viewing
    • SS – New Year’s Eve Soba
    • SS - Valentine
    • Elf Village Battle 6-7
    • The dreaming boy
    • Past Arc 26
    • Past Reflections: Ariel
    • Past Reflections: Gyurie
    • Character Introduction 2
    • The Black Dragon’s Battle
    • The Last Two Options 6
    • Skirmish – Oni vs Wind and Lightning 4
    • Decision Time 7
    • Assemble 2
    • The Demon King’s situational analysis
    • Final Battle 12

    Sariel does not act to do good or lead/support/pressure others to do good. When she does act in ways people might construe as good (ie: saving the children), it's too late and her throughput isn't good (as she later abandoned the kids). Nothing was shown about Sariel asking Dustin (or anyone) to take care of the children after she moved to kill herself either. Furthermore, she wasn't even supporting the children-I believe it was the donations from Foddway (and others) that kept them fed, clothed, and sheltered. Sariel had the power and opportunities to do good but chose not to so I do not believe she is worthy of being called good.
    Dictionary (evil): Dictionary.com Merriam-Webster
    I see Sariel as evil based on the scope I've read. Even if she is not aligned towards evil, the blind ignorance she shows prevents her from being good, and her actions promote evil. Her actions lead to bad endings and choices across the board, and her only response is to make even more bad choices. She doesn't ask for advice/help from any gods, true dragons, or her creator and proceeds down one bad path after the next, causing suffering and misfortune without considering the consequences.
    This is just one example of how some people believe they're doing good when they're avoiding doing what is obviously good/right/just.
    Like in various series, when a character is on a bus and someone steals something (or in a similar situation), failing to act makes you complicit to the wrongdoing. I'd be willing to overlook the small things like petty thievery and murders during wars but I can never overlook Sariel's complicity to Potimas human experimentation and torture. There's a difference between natural mistakes and truly evil acts.
     
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  6. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    First of all, ignorance doesn't equal evil. You can't be evil if you don't know better.
    You can't call for any other god, or you will just draw attention to this unprotected world, and something worse than D (though less powerful) may come to harm the humans. Also, you definitely can't ask the Dragons, they don't care about anything but enriching themselves, they're like space locusts going from world to world, so angels like Sariel usually kill them on sight. Sariel asked the human governments to stop using MA, and the dragons to give the humans a chance, and only President Dustin listened.
    No he wouldn't, he was the indecisive, 'make a lot of vague promises, but accomplish nothing' type of world leader. It's the reason he got the Virtue/Sin that he did, he just plays the long game, waiting for things to work themselves out. Right now is a pivotal point, so he has to take his shot, he'd be waiting for every nonhuman to kill themselves otherwise.
     
  7. Kphone89

    Kphone89 Well-Known Member

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    Try committing genocide and then saying "I didn't know genocide was wrong."
    You'll definitely be labelled evil and held accountable, even if you 100% thought that way and everyone knew you were ignorant.
     
  8. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    You will be labeled guilty, not evil.
     
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  9. Arbelbyss

    Arbelbyss ⸢Slacking Researcher⸥

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    I think about this quote: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
    Inaction can be bad... A lot of people have done nothing when they should have done something in order to bring about proper conditions to produce MA efficiently and not have their souls wear away to nothing. (Which honestly would have not lead to the story lol.) To which they are in this situation now. Their incompetence have lead to this and they're at their last straights even if others have acted in efforts to in essence save everyone, you can say the other group has wasted their efforts. They're all on the same ship.
    And some people can view you as evil after you have been convicted as guilty, shoot even if they feel that you should have been guilty yet were proven innocent, you can still be viewed as evil. Considering that the peoples' convictions are different from your own. And what they believe is that the guilty or who should have been guilty is evil. Especially in what actions that were done that lead to this conviction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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  10. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    Well that's the thing though, Evil is a moral judgement, and a religious one at that. Even the morally righteous people of the internet, are more likely to call you an animal, beast, or a monster. If it's not a person, it's easier to say it should be put down for what it did to innocent people.
     
  11. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    When has Dustin, leader of the world's biggest fake religion, ever shown himself as indecisive? That's very at odds with my impression of him so I'm kind of curious as to why you think that.
     
  12. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    When he made the MA weapons, but didn't use them because it would harm their reputation with Sariel. When he decided to not make a statement about what he knew needed to be done, so they wouldn't need to sacrifice Sariel, and when he decided that everything had been dealt with, crisis averted, because Sariel decided to subject herself to Potimas' machine. He is a politician, and he made it clear to his close cabinet members, way back when, that he doesn't have any plans other than wait and see.
     
  13. NZPIEFACE

    NZPIEFACE Leecher

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    When you put it like that, it makes me feel that the Virtue series is simply another way of saying "sin". The Ruler abilities seem to incentivise the behaviour that they're named after. It allows the wielders to indulge. Pride causes the wielder to think of themselves as supreme. Wrath turns the wielder into a mindless beast. Temperance allows Dustin to wait forever.

    Hmm, I can't actually remember what the rest are and what they do. I kind of get the feeling that the Sin series causes the holder to embody the sin, while the Virtue series allows holders to indulge in their "virtue".
     
  14. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind in most cases they had to earn the sin/virtue by exemplifying it to get the skill in the first place.
    But ya, there is a mental effect to reinforce and enable the virtue/sin
     
  15. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    Well, that would be a fair point if there wasn't a scene in between those times and the present where he went 'screw morality, I'm going to do whatever it takes for humans to survive.' Dustin made it very clear in the present that he wants Potimas dead.
     
  16. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    That's the present, when they are facing a definite deadline, even doing nothing is doing something now, and he's getting in the way of saving the world, because he wants to just continue as things are so long as the humans live. He didn't use the MA weapons because Sariera was one of their major contributors, he didn't prosecute/arrest or kill Potimas, because they might need him later. It's always about stalling for time, so they can wait for a solution to present itself.
     
  17. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't aware that there were any surviving weapons of that type. Can you please point out to me where in the story they are mentioned? Because it seems wildly out of character for Dustin to not try them on Potimas.
     
  18. Kphone89

    Kphone89 Well-Known Member

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    I find Dustin a bit more suspicious than what you're discussing:
    He had a Kill On Sight order for anyone with Taboo (even at Lv.1), but I never read about him adding a Kill On Sight order for elves. This shows he wasn't doing everything he could to eliminate Potimas, even in the later part of the story.

    If the church had this order out, elves wouldn't be free to interfere with the world (nations) the way they did. Sariel's voice in the system proves the existence of their god and dissuades countries from openly opposing the order (and the church). With commoners working in castles, nations would be further restricted from interacting with elves.
     
  19. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    I'm talking about in the before times, Dustin's was one of the countries with the weapons, they created them when Potimas released the technology, but they kept them hidden when all the nations started warring with the dragons and each other. He held off on using them, not because it was wrong to abuse that power, but because without the support of the Sariera Society he wouldn't get reelected, so he couldn't afford to get on Sariel's bad side. Then when all hell breaks loose, he holds off on having any stance, telling the people anything, because he doesn't want to be the President that ended the world. Just stick your head in the sand, and all your problems will be solved by someone else.
     
  20. Arha

    Arha Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that counts. He's not that person anymore, as evidenced by that scene where he decides to so whatever it takes to sav humanity from now on. Plus he was doing something wildly unpopular to begin with by not letting his country use MA energy to begin with. Also, we see him talk to Potimas reasonably early on and he says he'd kill him if he could and will do nothing that helps the elves be a further plague on the world.

    Dustin is a complex figure, shall we say, but I don't think the flaws that make him a villain are an unwillingness to act. He would absolutely have killed Potimas if he thought he could.