Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    Hohoho
     
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  2. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Mei is about 2 years old currently. From memory the magic test is at 3 but might be optional or something. Or minimum age is 3. However... that doesn't mean Mei can't use magic before being tested... particularly with Bander around.

    Just to be clear: I'm not saying that Mei is going to use magic soon. Just that it could happen and if it did happen it would likely be a major event.


    I was a bit ambivalent about Origin early on but I really like how it works in practice now. It might seem like an unnecessary complication but it actually has quite a bit of depth. It gives a nice sense of tension in how it could possibly affect Van. It helps expand the universe. It gives a very different sort of setting and shows how Van behaves in a very different environment. It also helps highlight that Rodcorte is a problem that spans multiple worlds.

    One of the sections that I've re-read the most (in raw) is the bit when Van first encounters Kanako and co and also Asagi and co at the start of the 9th arc. That wouldn't have been possible without Origin.
     
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  3. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    And I meant to say that most likelly that it is during that test that the everything is going to hit the fan, since it is what Akira is waiting for.

    The main problem I had with the Origin chapters is that nothing really important happened there, but the moment the eighth guidance made an appearance it showed that something is actually going to happen, and as you said, it gave the much needed characterization of... pretty much everyone that is not called Amamiya Hiroto. And even then the only thing we really knew about Hiroto is that he was the leader of the Bravers and the founder.

    Thank you! I was just searching for that!
     
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  4. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    I listed out a bunch of plot threads previously: one thing I missed out is the 3 Alda gods that defected to Van's side. We've not really had a proper update on whether that process has completed or whether Alda is aware IIRC.

    On another a minor note: Mei is 1 year and 10 months old in side chapter 40. It's probably only been a few weeks in-world since then.


    Maybe, but I wouldn't assume this. For example, Avalon seems to be operating under the assumption that Mei does in fact have death attribute magic to some degree - he considers her to be an important sample. So why would he actually wait for the test? If anything, it might be preferable for him that others don't know about Mei's abilities.

    With regards to testing for magic attributes, it seems that age 3 is the minimum because magic power doesn't stabilise within the body until then. Avalon could still make a move before then though, particularly since Rodcorte sent him some message - we have no idea what Rodcorte attempted to say or how Avalon interpreted it. For example, if Rodcorte attempts to warn Avalon to stay away from Mei but is vague on the details then it might well have the reverse effect because Avalon might interpret it as confirming Mei having death attribute magic.


    I think we've seen enough about Hiroto to conclude that he's a hard-core do-gooder but not necessarily particularly wise.


    You're welcome :)
     
  5. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Probably use it to either show the world Death Magic is far from gone (esp to his cooperators) or do more PR and political damage to Bravers as Narumi and Amemiya has a DA child (Mei) and is physical evidence (test wise*) since Bravers killed off Amamiya/Van and fought Eighth Guidance who're labelled as DA terrorists.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
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  6. SnowDorian

    SnowDorian Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the elemental mei test will mark the beginning of a world war on the Origin because the bravers have to die somehow ... Mei will probably be treated as a saint by a lot of people as governments and organizations linked or not to Avalon They will try to kidnap you ...
     
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  7. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Currently Avalon is trying to act very secretly so trying to "show the world" would be against his general policy to date. We've seen him make private announcements to his supporters and I'd expect that to continue. He'd almost certainly want to monopolise death attribute magic as much as possible. I'm not sure if he currently wants to undermine the Bravers as a group but he does consider Amemiya to be a threat so I can understand him specifically wanting to undermine him. At a guess I think Avalon would prefer the world to be generally stable so that he can concentrate on his research.

    btw, for testing Mei herself, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a test for death attribute magic aptitude... though I dunno how those tests work in general. At least I wouldn't expect it to be generally available since Mei is literally the second natural death attribute magician after "Undead" (Van). On the other hand, if all the other tests come up negative that might well be a sign by itself. If the tests can reuse the death attribute magic sensors then maybe something can be done though. But then again, I wouldn't put it past Bander to use various tricks to keep Mei's abilities secret since he's trying to protect her.

    I've suggested before that perhaps Mei might accidentally trigger the death magic attribute sensors installed in their home. I think that's a reasonable possibility. That could easily happen before Mei is officially tested.

    The other thing that's worth considering is that it's over a year before Mei will be tested, at a minimum, and Bander is already looking for options to undermine Avalon. He's told "Druid" about Avalon but they've not yet figured out anything they can do immediately. However, "Metamorph" (who is under mind control and often publicly acting as Avalon) is being Guided by Van and might well regain her consciousness at some point. I would expect some developments on these threads before Mei is tested.


    The Bravers don't have to die in general though. It might be convenient to Rodcorte to have more pawns to throw at Van but even he doesn't have much hope of that making much of a difference. From a plot point of view, it's probably better for the Bravers to stay on Lambda so that we can have some perspective of the situation there, because ultimately Rodcorte is probably going to kicked out of managing the reincarnation systems on Earth, Lambda and Origin. There's no particular need for everything to converge on Lambda.

    I'd expect some Bravers to die though, particularly Avalon and those on his side. I'd guess Bander will try to soul-break anyone he considers an enemy though since he'd prefer for them not to reincarnate on Lambda.
     
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  8. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    Did not he said that he would not send Akira a message since he is actually researching DA instead of trying to destroy it?

    I always thought that maybe Banda will somehow teach her how to manifest non-elemental to fool the test, and since her brother know how to use it too the excuse of "since they are 2 bravers children" can be given. Not that I think it will actually happen or possibly work.

    I so wish she recover her own will and control while acting as body double and tell everyone that Akira had her brainwashed, it would be entertaining to watch at lest.

    Especially Avalon, since his skill is tailor made to be broken Lambda, high speed learning and no limit for which skills he can learn (which may include race unique skills)? I can see him becoming the most broken OP villain in less than a year! Hell, he may ven be able to learn DA magic if he gets his hand in anything Van magic items!
     
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  9. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    When has Rodcorte ever made a smart decision? (This is not a trick question!)

    Last we saw he was thinking of what message to send to Avalon - we just didn't see it.


    No idea. I think it would be hard for Mei to learn no attribute magic in time but it might work. Would be a good way to screw with Avalon's expectations, heh (assuming he's still around).


    I've no idea what will happen but it should be fun! Btw, I don't think Van knows that he's Guiding Metamorph currently.


    Why do you think Avalon gives him unlimited skills? In practice I don't think it's much different from a standard Divine Protection on Origin though we don't know the details. It gives increased learning speed and no caps (ie no walls). It's pretty darn plain. However, over the long term it should help a lot but in the short term it'd be of very limited benefit. The relative difference it'd make on Origin would probably be bigger because alternative ways to boost development don't exist there.

    Kanako and co deeply researched whether anyone could beat Van before they decided to defect. They concluded that none of the Bravers had any real chance.

    If Avalon does die and gets reincarnated on Lambda, I think the only way he'd be a big danger is if Rodcorte decides to use that special Demon King fragment that he's kept as a last desperate chance...
     
  10. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    *sigh* I knew it was too much of a intelligent idea for him...

    I don't remember if it was described like this is the WN, but in the wiki it says that he inded does no have a cap in how much he can grow, cap which does not seems to exist in Lambda apart from the "soft cap" that is the development walls that everyone get. And I would say speed learning is more like being Guided than a Blessing. Maybe Roddy took the idea from there?

    To be fair, they only asked about Hiroto's Ignore Defense in Roddy's area, don't know if they actually looked in Lambda wether or not Van could be actually killed.

    And now that you said such a dumb idea, I can actually see Roddy doing it. Because of course giving the guy with a quick learning blessing an no cap a DK soul frag is a excellent idea! What could possibly go wrong!?
     
  11. anteopta

    anteopta Well-Known Member

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    that would not make him dangerous. those around van are in the same situation and van himself, while he is not beeing guided for speed but having divine protecion to get rip of the cap, has his manapool.
     
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  12. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Very easy, kidnap Mei after the test is done, hide her, then expose her her test results and once done Mei is under his grasp and Amemiya/Narumi/Bravers will be busy they won't be able to do anything against Avalon. Best way to deal with a threat that is already in public eyes is to keep them busy in their eyes (believe it or not, you see this everyday on the news in politics between the military and politicians).

    This is where the political and Public Relations bit I mentioned earlier can come into the argument, no need to kill, just keep them on 'lock down'

    Kinda having high hopes there for someone who said Alda was sane ain't ya? lmao

    Another dumb idea, lets send the guy at someone who can claim the Seven Deadly Sins (jobs wise), has a Job that is a mythological prison for Titans, capable of killing Gods (and possible chance of resurrecting them in an even stronger body *looking at Marduke's bones*) and is blessed by Earth's and Origin's Gods (and help gave birth to Pluto in Godhood)... Should I just continue the list? I mean one measly human with a DK fragment vs practically the Demonic God of Death (and is the son of Vida, a Goddess of Love and Life (irony) and Vida's Incarnation (His own resurrected mother, again Irony)). lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
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  13. SolMori

    SolMori Well-Known Member

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    One tiny problem in trying to kidnap Mei though, Banda will murder you. Van’s clone in Origin is probably more than capable of killing anyone and his only real limit is that he can’t go too far away from Mei.
     
  14. SnowDorian

    SnowDorian Well-Known Member

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    as I imagine the story will follow, the situation in Origin will direct to a world war and this will solve some problems that the reincarnated have ...
    1. Rodcorde gave good luck to them what made them naive and immature, a problem that has been mentioned a few times in the series
    2. Motivation: The war will make them truly believe that the attribute death should disappear for the sake of the world
    3. In normal conditions they are very difficult to kill causing that some of them only die if Avalon decides to kill ... the only one that did not die for Avalon was the Kanata
    and DM is increasingly lacking real opponents for Van, I really prefer the parts that develop the universe of the series and the surprises of Van's new jobs, but impotent opponents weaken the development of the series and even if Heinz can reach Van, only he and his group could do it ... I do not know if all the Bravers will die but I imagine a good part of it certainly
     
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  15. HiroBlaze

    HiroBlaze Well-Known Member

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    Avalon's cheat is closer to a divine protection more than anything if it appears in Lambda. Faster learning abilities and no growth caps (basically walls that warriors like Vigaro or Borkus would have when they try to learn new skills.) Avalon might think his cheat offers unlimited potential, but there are limits. Racial skills would be one because the only to get access to them would be through being born as a member of that race. Death attribute magic is another. The list can go on.

    He actually reminds me of Voldemort a bit in how he pursues immortality like that. Avalon could have obtained it if he befriended Van somehow.... but nope he screwed that chance up spectacularly. The wiki page will probably be re-edited once more chapters and side chapters are translated in English.

    @SnowDorian I envision a civil war like scenario with Braver's taking sides with Hiroto's & co. on one side including his family, and Avalon & his goons of evil on the other. Oh, Banda still needs to be re-connected with Van's hive soul to be upgraded again with new skills. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  16. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    All this talk about Avalon's skill, let's not forget about the boost given to Van placed directly on his soul by Vida giving him her blood and Zaccart's physical remains. That pretty much gave him a hyper-focused version of Avalon that did not give him the ability to gain other elements of magic, but hyper-boosted his growth potential like an invisible super divine protection written directly and perminantly onto his soul in a way that the gods typically explicitly try to avoid when granting divine protections (meaning just like with death magic, he will retain those blessings even in his next life after he dies, or rather IF he ever dies.)

    Yes, he got an early boost due to gaining awareness at only a few months of age, but he has that blessing that is far stronger than a normal divine protection to thank a great deal for how quickly he grew even before he started piling on the divine protections. At the very least it probably gave him the ability to outpace Avalon's learning rate. And again, that's before he got a single divine protection. (Although I expect Avalon to stack on some divine protections as well.)

    There is also a comment by Van to remember when Kanako started telling Van about the powers that all the bravers had. He commented that all the abilities sounded like weaker versions of things he could already do himself using his death magic, or something else from his unusual jobs (such as group binding.) True, they were only talking about the ones who were being reincarnated on Lamba, but you also have the fact that they joined Van because they had reached the conclusion that there would be absolutely no way any of the bravers could ever possibly defeat him even if they sat and waited for more of them to arrive.
     
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  17. Culaio

    Culaio Well-Known Member

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    Remember that cheat abilties are changed to fit within the world, so Avalon abilties may get buffed(or nerfed), for example it may be expanded to cover racial abilities.

    We have no idea how his ability will be adapted, to new world, for example author may decide to make it so that he can learn new skills fast without having to pick new job.

    Generally accelerated learning speed is ability that MC's get in isekai stories where MC ends up in world with rpg game like rules, because that skill alone can make them the strongest, of course I dont expect it to go that way in this novel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
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  18. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Rodcorte's decision making process seems to "implement whatever idea that first comes into his head". If he used Magic 8-Ball for all his decisions it would actually be an improvement.


    Maybe. It's pretty similar. Unlike some series where the MC gets a growth-speed cheat, Avalon's seems to be relatively small, at least on Origin. The author has specifically refused to quantify it though. It's also specifically mentioned that Avalon worked very hard and wasn't "distracted" by mastering his cheat ability itself (his is entirely passive unlike the others). That does mean that Avalon would probably have a better starting condition (be stronger) when he first moves to Lambda, if it happens.


    Well, that's what we see is asked but that doesn't mean they asked more. We did see numerous discussions with the reincarnators in general and we know that they were there for about a month. I think their overall conclusion is worth repeating:
    Obviously there is no guarantee for this to be correct and who knows what will happen in future but it seems reasonable to believe that these three put in quite a bit of effort and analysis into this - they might have a more precise understanding of the situation than the readers. Their lives depend upon it. So far they have been proven to be entirely correct.


    Only thing dumber would be using that DK soul fragment on Heinz or Edgar. I think this was suggested before (by jemini?). While Heinz would likely be much more dangerous it would massively undermine Alda's side...


    I thought of suggesting this myself in my previous posts but Van's situation is quite unique and I felt that making a more generic comparison would be less likely lead to the discussion being side-tracked.


    The actual cheats themselves have barely changed in Lambda. Rodcorte was able to make a minor tweak so that the cheats couldn't be used on reincarnators except for Van but the actual abilities were the same. What was new was how past experience (learned skills) from Origin were converted to Lambda specific skills - remember how Van has the "past experience not converted" curse from Rodcorte specifically preventing that? Rodcorte was also able to give them Death Attribute Resistance and the target radar thing.

    The way I understand it the cheats themselves are baked into the very souls of the reincarnators, which is why they aren't lost even when they're Guided (which does lose them some stuff). Putting it another way, Rodcorte can't simply change the cheats on the fly or anything like that. In some cases perhaps he might be able to do something special though but I wouldn't assume it in advance without specific evidence. Rodcorte hasn't shown an inclination to give one particular reincarnator an uber cheat over the others - he saw them all as pretty much the same rather than some being more "special" than others (though he did make a mistake with Hiroto getting double the cheats).
     
  19. Culaio

    Culaio Well-Known Member

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    I remember there was a mention that there are some small changes to abiltiies because different worlds have different 'rules' which is why recreating nuke could end in disaster, or the fact that van isnt exactly recreating food from his world(since same recipe wouldnt work same way on different worlds, and instead he is recreating flavor of food, so while it tastes same way,in reality it may be made differently then in his orginal world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  20. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Basically, divine protections and other skills are "software" that exist on the soul. (Rodcorte mentioned that arbitrarily adding skills to a soul decreases "memory".) Vida instead modified Van's "hardware" to work better, which even a "factory reset" won't change.

    Souls are computers. :blobthinkingsmirk:

    Yep. Rodcorte is still allowed to do whatever on Lambda only because he's Alda's biggest lobbyist. If he screws up bad enough, even Alda will have to kick him out and let Vida replace him.

    The cheats belong to the people who have them, since Rodcorte prepared them specifically for human use. Rodcorte can't take the cheats away because they don't belong to him. The other skills Rodcorte granted are basically cheap divine blessings from the old fool himself, which is why they vanish when the reincarnators leave his domain of influence. Also, Death Attribute Resistance hasn't vanished either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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