Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. heiro001

    heiro001 Well-Known Member

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    I was personally thinking of 299.

    For everyone else: Gods rejecting the children they and their brethren have created is an unforgivable sin to Botin as a mother goddess. But all powerful gods can't just do whatever they want in mortal society. So, while that doesn't mean she's okay with mortals doing whatever they want, as long as they have the desire to atone for a failure, she's willing to watch over them rather than intervening... but that doesn't apply to Alda, since he's a god too. :blob_thor:

    Anyway, a lot of this language seems to match up with the reasons for Nineroad's apparent apathy (specifically lines like “We should only make a move when the people desire it and when it is necessary. Heroes are not those we create, but beings that the people wish for. At most, all we need to do is lend them a little assistance.”), so I think there's ground for Nineroad and Botin to come to some kind of an understanding, even if Botin clearly isn't apathetic like Nineroad is. And of course since Nineroad helped out in the genocide in the first place and has continued to enable Alda, however passively, Botin may have no interest in talking to her either. :hmm:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  2. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Nineroad isn't apathetic. She does care, but her pessimism, experience, and guilt drained whatever motivation she had. Nineroad just needs a Snickers.
     
  3. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    ... Yeah... I don't think I really need to say anything. Most people here know my stance and perspectives already.
     
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  4. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    Just write it there are newcomer in this thread
     
  5. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    Basically that this almost seems like it's a specific an explicit scene setting to have Botin mediate between Van and Heinz.
     
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  6. ssj4maiko

    ssj4maiko Welcome Back Sadpanda!

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    Now I was thinking, we have no idea how Nineroad (and maybe even Pharmaun) could repent, but what if Van were to learn about Sinful Chains, rescue him/her, and there you go, just like he did with Bellwood, show them the true horror of their sins. I think it could be a good start after Bellwood and Heinz having their souls eaten. :x
     
  7. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    Magic pain glove?

    MAGIC PAIN GLOVE!!!
     
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  8. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    I like this line
    “But, even if I change my wording to make it sound better, it won’t change the reality of things.” (Makoto) From Hero? No i ordinary citizen.
     
  9. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    Also this one
    Trust is a virtue, but not knowing doubt is the quality of an idiot
     
  10. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    Problem with that. Sinful Chains' divinity shows a person their own sins, but only the person affected by it can see the results of this. Not even Sinful Chains him/her self knows what the person's sins were. As such, their power is not capable of showing the sins around.
     
  11. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    This is pointless because Pharmaun and Nineroad are already well aware of their sins.

    Heh. I like this line because I would say the same thing.

    My Mom: "That's rude."
    Me: "No, it's just a truth you didn't want to hear. You don't know how to appreciate brutal honesty as the virtue it is."
     
  12. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    It shame the character building wasted he didn't kill human eventhough he know the dark side of humanity
     
  13. ssj4maiko

    ssj4maiko Welcome Back Sadpanda!

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    It's not like everyone around needs to know.

    The point is that they are aware, but they may not have noticed how deep their sins are. They may think they can't change the past, or that they are doing their jobs while remaining neutral as a good thing, but it would be a nice reminder that they may not be worthy of any respect at all, and that even their ignorance and lack of attitude while still supporting the bad guy is something that they share responsibility with (50K years for Pharamaun, and if we consider the fact he did shit in the other 50K years, this is not good either, and 100K for Nineroad).

    We also have the subordinates, Nineroad has not been keeping an eye on her subordinate gods, while Baccias ended up in a nice way, Fittun was also her responsibility, and he tried to destroy Moksi. If closing oneself in their own room were a good excuse, many criminals in the world would not be considered as such.
     
  14. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for digging up that quote. It's safe to say that Botin strongly disagrees with Alda in this regard, but then again, I think it's fairly safe to say that Alda's also the only one of the great gods to take the stance that the population must live within strict bounds defined by the gods anyway. We see Botin take an interest in Van - she's clearly "intervening" with him, whether he likes it or not. So I don't currently see Botin being much different to the other great gods in this regard.

    However, Botin hasn't "officially" sided with Vida yet (according to the author). She's officially against Alda though. So it's still possible for an alternative faction to form around Botin, depending on various factors. Would Nineroad prefer to join Botin instead of Vida? If she takes the pragmatic view that to leave while triggering real change she then needs to bring as many other gods with her as practically possible. Given that many of those might prefer an alternative to Vida (who they've traditionally regarded as an antagonist), this is a reasonable consideration. Nineroad seems to be a serious and pragmatic person so such a calculation might make a difference to her actions.


    She seems to be on the opposite end of the spectrum to Alda in some areas (control/intervention), has very different views in other areas (Vida's races) and has argued with Alda on occasion to persuade him to adjust his stance but hasn't made any kind of move to undermine him or similar. I guess this is related to her non-interventionist beliefs - perhaps she doesn't like the idea of pushing her beliefs on others in general which is why she's willing to work with Alda, for now. I generally get the feeling that she has a strong sense of responsibility and wouldn't put her personal feelings before the fate of the world, which is why she hasn't shown any hints of moving away from Alda despite their differences.

    So if I were attempt to theorise a scenario in which Nineroad decides to leave Alda I think it would go something like this: she has not previously made a move because she felt it wouldn't be a net improvement for the world. She had no intention of staging a revolution just to get her way. Instead she felt it better to "work within the system", as it were, particularly given that she is partly responsible for the "current" situation. The world was not in a particularly stable situation overall for a long time (due to a lack of gods) so triggering a war or split amongst the gods would be foolish. So instead, she waited. And then Van turns up. And now, all the other surviving great gods have revived and are active again. This is now a very very different situation. Although the situation on the ground hasn't changed that much yet, it's very different for the gods. It's also extremely likely that there'll be a war amongst the gods, sooner or later. Nineroad might reason that if there's going to be a war then it's better that it's one-sided and quick, to reduce the harm to the world. Once she finds out that Bellwood has been revived and isn't going to support Alda then she might well reason that Alda is likely to lose. In which case, she might reason that it's better for the world if she reduces Alda's war potential as much as possible without directly causing any harm - eg by persuading as many gods to come with her and not take part in the war (take a neutral stance). In which case she'd probably work quietly behind the scenes, privately talking to various gods, before making her move.

    If this turns out to be broadly correct then it might be better to compare her to Peria, who did patiently wait while sort-of working with Alda. (Though obviously, it's not a direct comparison since Peria herself wasn't involved with Alda's previous actions)
     
  15. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    I'm pretty sure they have noticed...

    Pharmaun and Nineroad themselves don't think they are worthy of respect. They don't need to be reminded that other people feel the same.

    You have a point there... as did Nineroad, when she admitted responsibility for those screw-ups. She knows her inaction allowed bad things to happen.

    Oh, she did try to pass internal reforms. They didn't go very far. :blobcry:
     
  16. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    I'd never been quite satisfied with the "narrative" behind Alda attacking Vida 100,000 years ago. Here's a few ideas I put together yesterday that I think could help plausibly explain his actions:

    Background: Based on his internal thoughts, Alda's main motivation was ending Vida's reincarnation system, though he was against the existence of the Vida races anyway. But, given the costs of the attack, could it really be justified? Why was it so necessary? Also, it seems he never explained his full reasoning even to Bellwood. Alda seems quite rational at first glance but according to Ricklent he's driven more by emotion these days. So what was really going on?

    I'm not sure how self-aware Alda is and it's possible that fear, paranoia and other emotions lead him to take certain actions that he has then justified with somewhat shaky logic. It's also possible that there's certain facts/events behind Alda's actions that haven't yet been revealed. This gives rise to various possibilities, though they're not mutually exclusive - the truth could be a combination of factors.

    The Rodcorte factor: Alda doesn't seem to like Rodcorte but does like his reincarnation system. In general Alda seems rather against foreign gods getting involved with Lambda - ordinarily, I think Alda would prefer to have no foreign gods involved at all. So why does he accept Rodcorte? It's possible that he believes that there's no safe alternative. It's also possible that Rodcorte threatened Alda (maybe overtly maybe indirectly) about pulling out his reincarnation system if Alda supported Vida's reincarnation system - after the war there were only 3,000 survivors so Rodcorte might have figured there was little point in keeping his system active on Lambda when the gods there are looking to replace his system as well. It's also possible that Rodcorte didn't intentionally make any threats but that Alda feared Rodcorte could pull out. Either way, if Rodcorte pulled out then that would result in the eventual death of the "original" races (humans, elves, dwarfs) - it's easy to believe that Alda would desperately want to avoid such a thing, since it would make it impossible to restore the world to its original state.

    The fear/paranoia factor: Murakami foolishly decided to attack Van, basically because he thought Van would attack him (as Murakami would do if he was in Van's position). In other words, Murakami predicted Van's actions based on what he himself would do, not what he thought Van himself would do. Could the same have happened for Alda, in regards to Vida? Consider what Alda did after defeating Vida - he basically became world leader/dictator and controlled the world. In which case, isn't it plasusible that he attacked Vida because he feared that she planned to do the same thing? From Alda's point of view, she created a lot of strong races in highly dubious circumstances and then refused to talk with him. That combination probably helped stoke his paranoia. Perhaps Alda specifically feared that Vida would create a powerful army with her new races then attack the remaining humans/elves/dwarves - either killing them or forcing them to convert to Vida races. That would make it impossible to restore the world to its original state and also leave Alda at Vida's mercy.

    In short, Alda likely feared being betrayed by Rodcorte or Vida or both. Perhaps he felt he would look foolish if he spoke of these fears which is why he kept quiet.
     
  17. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Alda's goal is returning the world to its original state. Getting rid of Vida's system is part of that, and it's also what keeps Alda on Rodcorte's good side. Killing off Vida's races is a bigger concern, but doing that would help get rid of Vida's system anyway.

    It wasn't necessary or justified, but Alda is willing to achieve his pipe dream at all costs.

    A dearth of communication is one of the greatest driving forces behind the conflicts in the story. Note that Alda is the least prone to explaining himself to others.

    At the beginning, the great gods kept each other rational in a sort of checks and balances system. Some of those gods were killed off, so Alda decided to replace them with people who shared his own views, while Bellwood inspired him to attack the remaining gods who didn't share those views. Basically, Alda is free from everything holding him to certain standards.

    The great gods base their religious views on their personal views, which are defined by their personalities. The great gods also have some extreme character traits, so when one of them loses the hidden blessing of peer review, that god is almost guaranteed to go wild and do the batshit insane things they feel like doing. We see this very clearly in Alda, and to a far lesser degree in Van and Vida. The difference is that Van and Vida are not being restricted by Alda, while Alda isn't being restricted by anyone.

    Also note that while Vida is only moderately insane and still quite reasonable up to a point, Van's views are pretty much the opposite of Alda's, which is leagues better but still quite flawed. This is in large part due to Alda's tyranny, and by extension, the great gods' inability to stay together and maintain balance between each others' ideals. Van embodies the conflict in Lambda's pantheon. Cue the Qliphoth job...

    It seems Alda isn't very self-aware. After all, who needs self-awareness and logic when you just know you have JUSTICE on your side? :blobunamused:

    Rodcorte's system was the only one there when Lambda began, so that's the only one Alda wants. Even though Rodcorte is technically a foreign god, he has just one job on Lambda, he does it well, and he's been doing it from the very beginning.

    Rodcorte could have made such threats, but I'm not sure if Alda needed to hear them. Monsters and Vida's races don't use Rodcorte's system, so Alda is all for it.

    I doubt Rodcorte would choose to simply abandon 3000 souls, if given the option. He's just too greedy. It would take an active soul-stealing threat like Van to scare him away from Lambda. And most of the dead souls were still in Rodcorte's system, so Rodcorte actually won huge short-term gains from that war.

    Murakami didn't know what Van would do. That doesn't quite justify attacking Van, but it's kind of understandable. Unsympathizably foolish, but understandable.

    Since Bellwood elevated Alda from control freak to tyrant, that sounds extremely likely.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  18. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    My impression is basically Alda like Sheldon from Big bang theory, always has to be right, does not properly listen to others and unable to cope with any change or the new.
    He wants to reset the world because the old worked and for him the new one does not.

    He wants to get rid of vida's system because to him it is not perfect, and he idiotically thinks Rod's circle is, so it is not needed and dangerous.

    Never mind the danger of abandonment or betrayal is way smaller then with Rod. That it was still a beta being developed. Plus it innately handles cases Rod's does not (the monster soul races), but they are also abominations (new) and need to go.

    Alda is basically "everything new has to go".

    In a early appearance he mentions his views on the development rod wants, and his logic is basically "it creates new problems so it is no good" no comparison to existing issues or cost/benefit analysis, he focused entirely on the negatives to justify to himself saying no like he wanted to.
    I think Alda was a necessary part of the worlds balance as a force of order stability, but was a dictator in waiting who had to be kept in check by the other gods (with vida being a similar force for creation and the new, capable of going to far but less into controlling others). A necessary viewpoint to consider, but not treat as 100% reliable. He likely either forgot or never fully accepted that his way was not always right. as soon as he had a chance he overthrew the remaining gods and enforced his stagnation on the rest of the world. Unable to accept the differences he enforced his will to work towards removing them. Because he does not like the changes and has convinced himself he is always right. I mean if he really cared about the other gods opinions and viewpoints as his equals his church would not preach to kill anyone who disagrees with his teachings.

    Alda has echo-chambered himself for so long it is not funny. He is long since convinced his viewpoint is the only right one, and anyone else is either an idiot or insane, and has long since got to the point that violence and murder are acceptable for his ideals. He does not even bother trying to talk or discuss with opponents anymore and goes straight to violence. I mean at the point he decided van had to die a a danger to the world there was no evidence Van was a danger other than being a Vida race and having a couple abilities that he had only used defensively, with evidence that Van would be a benefit if alda had bothered to look, or care about anything other then race.
     
  19. Nimitz

    Nimitz Well-Known Member

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    I think both Hillo315 and sjmcc13 have good points. Alda and Vida begin to separate before the war even finish. And with Bellwood "if we talk things out, I'm sure we can come to an agreement on me being right", as evidenced . The only way Vida could work together with them is under Alda.

    I think cult like thinking play a big part in this story. Aum Shinrikyo: the cult that tried to kill about 1 million people in Tokyo. Look it up. Wiki. Books. Or podcasts.
     
  20. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction. NNN member Nr.1.

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    They are scary i mean sarin gas attack in tokyo.
     
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