Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. Aqrabuamelu

    Aqrabuamelu New Member

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    Actually we don't really have the information to judge their relative 'mass murderer' tallies. Van is the central character so we've seen all of his actions. Heinz is a secondary character whose actions we only see on occasion for effect. We have no way of knowing how many living beings Heinz has killed on his way to S Class. How many villages or clans he's eradicated on a 'quest' from some local noble or the local adventurer's guild. You can make a good case that Heinz has been (and on some level continues to be) involved in attempting multiple genocides.

    When it comes down to it, though, only one of the two is willing to accept that what he's doing isn't some attempt to reach some mythical 'greater good', but instead accepting that his actions are simply perspective. There is nothing so dangerous as a person who has the absolute belief that what they are doing is right and their end goal is worth any sacrifices they deem necessary to achieve it.
     
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  2. TUSF

    TUSF Well-Known Member

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    Except that the scientists on Origin have been trying to create a death mage for a while, and Legion's parts are all they had to show for it. Mei may actually have the full capabilities of Death Magic, but even she was created by complete accident.
    And the issue of tyrants isn't something you fix with "more tyrants".
    Adventurers tend to wipe out monsters that attack humans. Evidence of this is how the ghouls were fine in their village for so long, without issue, until the Noble Orc threat (and the Vampires wanting to wipe out Van) brought attention to them. It's a fact that many ghoul populations attack and eat humans, so it's not like all of Vida's races are innocent or anything.
    This is a series that makes a point about smearing the black and white, and yet there are so many readers like you that just seem to ignore that, and ironically apply terms like good and bad, when the point of the series is that there's often no one at fault.

    This is so laughably and willfully incorrect. Heinz is actively trying to reform the Alda faction to make peace with Vida.
    You're just as bad as the fanatical Alda believers.
     
  3. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    They were fine because they were out of the way, with a more profitable devil nest closer to town then they were.
    except that there is always someone at fault. Vida's races are not hostile to humans by nature, when they are it is almost always by milenia of nurture from Humans being hostile to them.
    No he is not. as long as he is still humans first, or willing to kill/enslave Vida races for sketchy reasons he would not apply to humans (like killing van for a potential that would require him to kill almost every noble if applied to humans) Heinz is not working towards peace.
    Until he calls out Adla and his followers for their crimes and sins he is not working towards peace.
    Heinz might think he is working towards peace, but that requires solving the cause of the conflict which he is not willing to do. and a large part of the cause is that they do not treat Vida or her races as equals.
     
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  4. TUSF

    TUSF Well-Known Member

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    Except that adventurers still came by to cull the orcs and other monsters that cause problems, while largely ignoring the Ghouls. Or did you conveniently forget about the Adventurers that the Orcs captured?
    So your argument is "humans are at fault, because humans bad"?
    Nice.
    This, ladies and gentlemen, is what's called a "straw man".

    You truly have missed every moral of the story up until now, huh?
    I won't be responding to you any further.
     
  5. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    When Adventurers came, the ghouls tended to hide from them. and they came rarely.
    They were left alone otherwise because they were isolated and not worth the cost to eliminate.

    Once there was something on the level of the Noble Orc that cost became "justified" by the people in charge.

    When Van was in the Hartner dutchy there is a side scene where a couple adventurers comment on how their prefered prey is disappearing (that prey being ghouls Van was taking to taloshiem). If the ghouls devil nest was closer to civilization then it would have been an active hunting ground.
    No peace, a true peace, requires fixing the source of the conflict, those are both referring to key parts of the source of the conflicts that Heinz is not addressing. you can not achieve peace while the aggressor is acting as if he did nothing wrong.

    Humans first means acting like you are superior, and you can not achieve peace without treating others as equals.

    You also have to show that you are addressing what cause the conflict on your side in the first place. They can not do this as long as they are acting like Adla is perfect. his errors need to be called out as otherwise the trust that is needed for peace will never be achieved.

    You have to listen to the other side, put in effort to understand their complaints. Adla's side is not interested in anything less then forcing subservience.
    Yes, the humans are bad. The gods they worship are worse, but the humans are not without blame.

    They have done nothing to fix their world, and only made things worse. They need to accept that their actions have consequences, look at what they have done wrong and do better.

    Rather then fighting each other they should have been working to reclaim their world.

    Rather then worshiping Adla as the sole authority they should have remembered that he is 1 of 11 equals, and respected the wishes and beliefs of all of them. If they had treated at least the "sleeping" gods as being on the same level as Adla the world would not be anywhere near as bad as it is.

    The reasons Schneider sided with Vida are all things that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN in Lamda has no excuse for not seeing. They are in the wrong because they chose the simple lie over the difficult truth. To make it worse there is evidence that others have seen the same facts, and are not changing things for their own selfish reasons (the emperor seemed to realize the truth, but keeps the discrimination because it is politically convenient).

    I mean even between the 3 "human" races they are effectively humans first since the nobles do not even like letting the longer lived elves and dwarves achieve positions of power.
     
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  6. anteopta

    anteopta Well-Known Member

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    humans are bad? Schneider? where is he "bad"?
    that is the problem with your statemant, humans include Schneider and as he is not bad, you can't say that humans are bad. you need to say which humans are bad.
    and to that, correct me if i am wrong but, you sound like you are saying that people are born with morals, morals that say that fighting is bad and that you should seek peace with others.... the main point of this story is that something like that doesn't exist.
    what you are doing is forcing your morals on the humans and judging them based on those, like alda does with his vidas races are evil, to him they are just a part of the DKs army of which half there parents are from(most of them) they always try to make a distinction between them
     
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  7. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Active Member

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    I think we had a similar discussion in an earlier chapter and that the conclusion to that was: convenience. Is convinient to follow Alda's school because they give power. Is not convinient to follow Vida's school because they can't. Is convinient to do as Alda says because they are the majority and we used to be fellow 'human' allies. Is not convinient to do as Vida says because they are the minority and she have the scary gods and races that used to be enemies. The reason Scheider started to follow Vida was because he decided to talk with the Lamias (if I remember right) and then thought "Hey, if we can talk and get along (and they are hot) why the hell do we have to fight one another?", after that he met other races including Zod (one of the first to become a vampire) and Yuri 'name-too-long' pipe (a evil god) and learned that there was no reason at all to fight in the first place.

    That's not to say that Vida's side have no fault (something that she herself admited), even Van said so during his encounter with Heinz.

    I always remember this specific scene early on between Zadiris and Van at the ghoul camp (REALLY early on), he ask why they eat humans, her responce? "Don't they do the same thing to our corpses?" I think that that pretty much sums up Van's way of thinking: they do this so is okay to do the same to them. If one come with the intesion to kill, he will kill too, if one does not then he don't either, if they are friendly the he will be friendly too. I like to call it immediate karma. Of course, if someone ask him for revenge in their place and he think they have a good reason for it then he will take revenge. "If you want revenge then I will help you if you want" he told to someone I can't remember.

    Anyway, what wanted to say is that the whole conflict is not just something that can be catalogued with the 'good side' and the 'bad side', or who is right and who is wrong. It is just a conflict between two side that can't reach a middle ground because of too different ideas of 'how the world should be'. One side wanting to make the world stay as it is (if still wanting for an united world against the 'real enemy') and the other for the state of the world to move on already from a 100k years old conflict (and accept that the 'REAL enemy' is not them).

    In this story, if Van is the anti-hero who fight without caring for the rules imposed by others ("I do it because I am afraid of the gods") and know enough of the real state of the world to make significant change in his own (often aggresive) ways, then Heinz is the hero who knowed nothing at all and moved in a way he thought would bring result, unknowingly chaining himself in the rules of 'human' society and not being able to make that much of a change, just recently being smacked in the face with the fact that he is not being of much help at all.

    I could actually go for hours pointing out every single point of why this novel is brillliant in subtle (and not so subtle) ways when it come to it's central conflict, but this is already 4 paragraph long so I will leave it at that.
     
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  8. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    Yeps there are no good side or bad side in this novel, only conflict interest. I think i will wait interesting scene when other Pillar God awaken, will they condem Vida or alda? I think alda should let life Attribute to Vida as he will become more free and to suppress Vida power but it's should happen near the war as it's disadvantage in long-time plan.
    It make me wonder, is pillar of the world would comeback to their original Gods?
     
  9. hillo315

    hillo315 Active Member

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    For the wind attribute, no. For the fire attribute, unlikely. For the life attribute, unlikely but possible at some point in the future.
     
  10. Vexram

    Vexram Well-Known Member

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    this is actually very likely as long as the story progresses far enough for alda to be defeated. life attribute is first nature to vida and the divinity would likely return to her as long as it was freed from alda's grasp.
     
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  11. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Active Member

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    They will likely oppose Alda for the current state of the world (him commanding everything) but not necessarily join Vida's, they may even just stay neutral like Ricky and Zuru did (forcibly) in the past. If Alda is not hypocrate enough to hold back the subbordinate gods currently administering them for whatever reason, then the elements should be back to their original gods (with the exception of wind and fire). The problem would come from the gods who genuinelly want to follow Alda (inlcuding the ice god who is managing water) and don't want to serve the original gods.
     
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  12. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    Hmm or ice God is believe that Peria will chose alda
     
  13. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Active Member

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    And Ricky, Zuru and Vida (I swear that the author have a long name fetish!) think she will not since her champion was part of the production side. Anyway, since we know nothing about her apart from her element we will have to wait another volume to know. Probably. Maybe the author will stretch it as long as possible. Or not.
     
  14. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    I think Peria will chose Vida regardsless Van is her former champion or not,She goddess of knowledge,after all.
     
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  15. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Active Member

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    .
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    :facepalm: I forgot about that. I still will not call it a 'certainty' though, just a 'most likely'.
     
  16. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    Can i ask about the diffrence of divine protection? Or at last what page in this spoiler thread that explained the diffrence of divine protection.
     
  17. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    I think alda original role is to become like oposition if in our government because this god is really odd in comparison of other original god
     
  18. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Active Member

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    I think that his original role as the law god was to make sure the other gods did not 'intrude' into others domain or interfered with the natural laws of the world, I say this since his Law Stake was described as a way to seal gods as punishment for not properly administering the world. Most likely he was convinced by Bellwood to think that as the god of law he is to decide what is the law.

    I suppose you mean the difference between the protection given by different gods? Going by Van's description, it make it easier to level up in base, job, race and skill, and easier acquisition of skill related to the god, in Van's case it is skill that one should not be able to acquire naturally (like Vigaro's spiritualization skill).
     
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  19. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you're asking here.

    Can you explain what you find confusing or unclear?
     
  20. Nakakure

    Nakakure #GP2019

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    The effect of divine protection of God to status.