Discussion Magic systems

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by hypersniper159, Oct 26, 2022.

?

Best way to use magic?

  1. Character development

    5.6%
  2. World building

    44.4%
  3. Plot vehicle

    11.1%
  4. Each story is different

    61.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. hypersniper159

    hypersniper159 Creator of NuF’s 7th Enigma

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    How do you thin magic systems should be used in novels? Should they be used to promote character, plot or world building?
    Example:
    character: magic is based on emotions; the self.
    Plot: since mc needs/wants to be stronger they get stronger magic; the external/systems- ie; house, circuit, ect.
    World building: seeing the rules of magic, where it is applicable and not; the environment.

    Honestly, the best way depends for each novel, but how do you prefer authors using magic?
     
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  2. TheUnsuspicious

    TheUnsuspicious ‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎ㅤ

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    rather than asking what it should promote. its more fitting to ask, whether it can promote.
    like depending on the magic system, each of them, assuming that they are flesh out, will definitely enhance the plot and the world building... characters is a bit different as it still depends on the kind of magic system itself.

    an example of a magic system, which i forget the name of the book, has a magic system that revolved around promises and spirits.
    if your ideals are strong enough, spirits of similar perspective will gather around you. and once it happens, you are able to create a promise for them.
    if accepted, you will gain power to manipulate realities or create phenomenas.
    however when the promises are broken, you will lose all your power and be condemn with some kind of punishment.

    with that magic system, you can definitely show the character's perspective of life and their motivation, and perhaps as they grew older, their belief got stronger and so do their promises and strength.

    you could also enrich the world building since the power of promise are so integral to the world. for example, when a king broke his promise, his nation was razed to the ground from countless disasters, and that story became a living legend in which no life can thrive in that land. another one could also be a lake frozen since time immemorial, which turns out to be a prison that held a fallen witch that had betrayed her spirits.

    naturally, plot could also be improve further, for example, you can challenge the character's ideals and tempt them to break their promises. for example, the witch from before. perhaps her promise was to never use dark magic or harm the innocents. however, her beloved died, and as the world building goes, the witch decided to use necromancy and broke her promise, thus leading to her eternal imprisonment. Using that as a premise, you can create an arc in which the witch has to rebuild her broken promise with the spirits, and hopefully be forgiven... or you know, just go full sadistic and say that spirits died when promises are broken so the witch go full depressed cause she had killed her friends in order to save her beloved. who knows, its up to you and your imagination.
     
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  3. ReaderReader

    ReaderReader (◍•ᴗ•◍) [Important things must be said 2 times]

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    Mostly for world building ... If the system has a consciousness or is a higher deity's way of contacting MC plot vehicle is alright.
     
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  4. hypersniper159

    hypersniper159 Creator of NuF’s 7th Enigma

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    Honestly, if a magic system cant do anything for the novel, then why is it in there in the place? That's just awful writing. That's why i assumed the magic actually has a purpose.

    sounds like on of Brandon Sanderson's books, not WoT or Mistborn.
    So the magic system should do all 3 is what I'm getting. I don't know if I entirely agree with that. Although it will definitely make for a great novel, I want to see the world. I won't mind reading a story about an mc, any random noun (like moving cheese), learning about the world and the magic system. Obviously there has to be plot, otherwise just read a world bible, which I wouldn't mind reading. Its just that a world bible is not a story.
     
  5. ReaderReader

    ReaderReader (◍•ᴗ•◍) [Important things must be said 2 times]

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    I want to add that

    A magic system should NOT do more than what the writer is capable of fleshing out. Authors try to stuff to much stuff into the system and it does not look pretty
     
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  6. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    to each own so basically it depend on various stuff~ as long as it have clear rule consist of :
    what is magic
    how to use it
    limitation

    imo limitation is the blacksheep err usually crossed over and over and over~ when character in pinch suddenly they break limitation, yeah suuure~ ever read typical cultivation novel with OP MC? that kind of situation where limitation broken over and over and over with typical there more level limit on higher realm / plane / world / universe / wutever to point limitless bs~ the special character defying heaven rules with unheard ability or skill or wutever BS it be~ it does have it own charm but imo what a mess up "magic" system~ soft system perhaps with bit hard system~

    rpg magic system kinda fun~ it have familiar system from game and other entertainment media~ original system sure sound a novelty but most kinda ignorance? on sense it is hard to create stable, consistent, clear system~

    all back to how to execute the story~ magic just part of the story~ unless you wanna make it the main core of story which mean the magic is main source of the problem~
     
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  7. hypersniper159

    hypersniper159 Creator of NuF’s 7th Enigma

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    Too many unresolved plot points/beats lead to an awful unsatisfying ending. The only time I would imagen its any good is if the author is trying to leave a sense of mystery, like Cthulhu, an apocalypse, ect. But even then everything else is closed out so the reader gets the full spectacle of the novel.
     
  8. ReaderReader

    ReaderReader (◍•ᴗ•◍) [Important things must be said 2 times]

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    Very few authors can actually pull that off tho ... Usually if I see a super complex system it's most likely not an amazing fleshed out. Parts that are left out are mostly because of forgetfulness
     
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  9. TheUnsuspicious

    TheUnsuspicious ‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎ㅤ

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    What im trying to say is that you dont need to know whats the purpose of a magic system for the novel. Bcs good magic system can improve at least 2 of them and even all 3 depending on the character's interaction.
    I've rarely seen a good magic system failing to improve the plot and the world building, if there is, it's mostly the author's not applying it.

    For example, just from the one you gave. From what i gather, it revolves around emotion. But as i havent understand it fully yet, ill take it as a desire essentially.(if i am wrong, just treat it as a different magic sys)

    So the stronger your desire, the stronger the effect youll get from the world. Thats the baseline.
    Alright with it, we can do all sorts of stuff.
    Its a bit obvious for characters so ill skip that.

    World building. You could create a village hidden from the world, however when you enters it, no one could do anything that is destructive. To make it simply, the villagers have such a strong desire of wanting to have a peaceful life, they literally effect other's desire from taking effect. Allowing no one to disturb the peace of the village. Naturally, there are ways to defeat this, but we're not here for that so lets move on.
    Another one could be about an ancient city full of ghost, its a city that operates like normal, but bcs of how weirdly ancient they are, you slowly realized that all of them are actually dead people.
    Perhaps their city was razed so quickly, so suddenly, the people that lived in the city cant accept it. They thought that it was all just a dream. And bcs their desire are so strong, they manifested themselves as a phemomena and lived as a ghost city.

    Plot. The ghost city for example, bcs they are all a ghost, they cant age, they cant adapt, and because of their desire, they are trap in that year, living the same life over and over and over again.
    But as you explore the city, you found one who was different, turns out, one grandpa was the sole survivor of that city, but bcs of his attachment, he decided to live with the ghosts of his friend and family, trap in that eternal day, with one exception. He could age. And with time progresses, his family didnt even recognize him, treating him as a stranger eventually... ok its getting long, so basically, the grand question should be, should your character do smthng abt it? Or should you just ignore it?
    If you want to do smthng abt it, you can justify it by saying that you want to save the grandpa from having such an unhealthy life. However that is a weak justification, so i would rather say that the city of ghost had affected the surroundings ecosystem, and you couldnt ignore it bcs its long term effect is disastous.
    Altho its already long, i need to give 2 examples, so another one for plot is perhaps you can play around the magic sys. Altho a punishment is not a must, it does make a magic sys interesting. For example, the longer you used a power that stems from your desire, the more obssesed you are with that desire, your view slowly twisted to accomodate that growing desire. And before you realize it, you became a twisted being, moving with one sole desire, like lets say, the desire to kill all ancient wizards. Your desire is so integrated to you, your body and power was made solely for that purpose. Your resistant towards ancient magic and your ability to consume enemy's magic became your main arsenal. You gain an ability to track and even have a sixth sense towards the ancient wizards. You have literally turn into a natural predator for them.

    So to recap, a good magic sys will have the ability to improve the story overall, it just depends on how the author use it as a good magic sys purpose is to enrich the fantasy world and not just one aspect of them.

    Im quite agree of this. A magic system doesnt need to be complex. In fact being too detailed is a problem, i mean do you expect your readers to have a word document dedicated for the magic sys? No. And it shouldnt happen.
    Just make it simple. Fleshing out simply means that you think about it deeply. And simple rules creates endless possibilities, so all you need to do is to refine it and youre done.
    No great science or ancient mythology needed. Just a simple creativity and carefulness is all you need.
     
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  10. 7starkiller99

    7starkiller99 Well-Known Member

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    Each story is different.

    Would be interesting if emotions affected magic, sort of like how emotions affect duels in Star Wars.
     
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