Mary Sue. And why it's a "Flawed" Term.

Discussion in 'Author Discussions' started by Ernisius, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. juniorjawz

    juniorjawz Well-Known Member

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    5% brain output? That 5x more than the average Nuffian brain output!
     
  2. waleuska

    waleuska Well-Known Member

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    I think that difintion of mary sue is dumb on the account that being a perfect character can be great. Look at Light. By that definition he will be a sue as well.
     
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  3. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    Well, i think i had made it clear enough. But to make it short, my issue would be with people wanting for every character to start from trash to something better. When you could already make him smart and on his way to Power. They also always criticize whenever the Main character just steamrolls some small fries. They think that every encounter must be a struggle both physically and mentally etc...
     
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  4. Miri-Bell

    Miri-Bell Semi-crazy Magic Cat

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    I'm extremely certain you have no idea what you're talking about as if you did you know there's more than 1 type of Mary Sue. Case in point: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueTropes
     
  5. Mazino

    Mazino The final chapter.

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    somehow that fanfic is better than every "chinese man reincarnates back in time and becomes new bill gates windows.exe super merchant engineer god who makes billions, learns superior chinese martial arts, and fucks every 10/10 jade beauty and america blonde super model beauty queen of western world, then proceeds to help motherland cause china Numbah 1" modern times novel i've been seeing recently pop up like the cancer it is. China really is a human ant farm. God help any creative soul born in that drone assembly line of a nation.
     
  6. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

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    Ah yes I see now. You've found one of the great laws of the review section of novel updates. I will add this to the pile along with complaints about arrogant young masters, beta virgin MC's, and r18 protagonists being too rapey. Really there is no way to satisfy everyone, so I just hope that it doesn't kill the translator's motivation.
     
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  7. AvERaGeNP

    AvERaGeNP Well-Known Member

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    One Mary Sue novel that everyone loves is historys strongest senior brother.
     
  8. ZhaWarudo

    ZhaWarudo TOKI WO TOMARE!!!

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    True, but that' don't make it good. Hell I'll even read the third chapter if it comes out just to see where this dead end thing goes.
     
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  9. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    I have already replied and made it clear what kind of warped and misleading label this is. I agree with you when you about being a bad thing to give a character everything thus making him immortal from the get go. But this is not what the thread is about. I have made it CLEAR when i wrote it.
     
  10. Suijin

    Suijin Blood God [Medic]

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    @Westeller you were called out :cookie:
     
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  11. The Great Derc

    The Great Derc Active Member

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    I think I get what you're trying to say. You hate how people make their MCs utterly incompetent, and all of their struggles are caused by their own mistakes. Then you get a group of people that point at any supremely competent MC and they all go "ITS A MARY SUE! BAD WRITING!" Then everyone thinks they also have to make some limp dick MC just to keep haters away.
     
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  12. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    A Mary Sue has generally several attributes:

    A: Stronger than established paragon characters with little to no effort. (Imagine Frodo beating Gandalf 1 vs 1 with only magic, before he even left the Shire)
    B: Flawless (Literally half, if not more, of the NU MCs ffs)
    C: The entire plot and setting is focused on them and nothing else. (Yep. Most CNs.) This does not necessarily apply to all characters since a very strong architect paragon can warp almost everything. Srsly tho, this is the main offense in combination with B. (Plot armor falls into this category as well, you could also call it heavenly luck)

    You can write a decent character who fullfills A and B and is no Mary Sue. Heck the point can even be that the character is one (as it is in OPM to an extend). But C will instantly break any novel to pieces.
     
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  13. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

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    I mean, you aren't wrong since you're literally calling him out in your sentence.
     
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  14. ZhaWarudo

    ZhaWarudo TOKI WO TOMARE!!!

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    Well you haven't explained that well and didn't give any examples. I thought you were talking about some generic web novels that are pure trash, you need to be clear about what kind of novels you are talking about.
     
  15. Miri-Bell

    Miri-Bell Semi-crazy Magic Cat

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    I read a lot of them because boredom and it's all anyone ever uploads anyway. Admittedly Japanese novels frequently end up dwmca though so not their fault.
     
  16. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    THIS. This is what i have been trying to explain.
     
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  17. Warlock Of The Void

    Warlock Of The Void Well-Known Member

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    I think it is more of a people choice and taste problem then the term Mary Sue , like I get what u r saying and I personally like character with power and not be dumbtwits who would be considered smart when thinking with their knees ( almost all CN MCs ) . But some people like those guy and it's thier choice like someone like Star Trek more than Star Wars or vice versa , there is nothing wrong with that
     
  18. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    So... this hurt to read...

    It is a Term you encounter a lot because a lot of amateur writers have a tendency to write Wish Fulfilling characters. They even at times try to write themselves into the character but do so in a way where they are overly perfected versions of themselves.
    In General the term is used to describe characters that are over idealized. They lack humanity because they are written with no flaws and written to do all things they do perfectly. This is so far removed from reality that people can't relate at all to the characters.
    The only way you would be able to realistically relate to them in such a way is if you are some form of a Sociopath who has serious issues with relating to others, even fictional characters.

    Using the Term 'Mary Sue' shouldn't be synonymous with promoting writers to write flawed characters. You can write a good Mary Sue, its just that most of the people who fall back on writing characters like this usually don't have the skill required to write a book in which a Mary Sue character doesn't detract from the novel.

    Your description of lazy writing and pushing the reasoning for advancing poor plot on Characters Flaws again only applies to Authors that are unskilled at creating characters with believable motivations. This isn't pinpointed on the Term 'Mary Sue'. This is something extremely common when reading works from amateur authors. ESPECIALLY Fan Fiction authors. No offense to them as some are pretty darn good but that's like finding a diamond in the rough. The vast majority are unskilled amateurs or just don't have talent in writing which is why these problems pop up.

    This is my response to the meat of your Post. Now honestly i think you are being intentionally provocative in the way you have delivered this post. And if you weren't new and a somewhat established member of the community i'd jokingly tell you to add the proper Tags. But since your new i can't tell if your doing this for some entertainment or are just an asshole.
    You seem to be responding to posts in good faith and fairness so ill just think you are trying to be a provocateur for now.

    It isn't inherently wrong as it can be done well but the vast majority of the time it is done poorly or so incredibly poorly that it physically hurts. I think most people (Me for Sure) don't have a problem with the term itself as your are oh so broadly stating but with the characters themselves... each specific and different character that can fall within the category.
    The terminology isn't the issue, its the Author creating a certain type of character without the ability or imagination to make them at all compelling or relatable within their characters archetype.

    God Bless people who cant see to the real root of the issue and give us all something to discuss at 11:30 pm.

    Mother of Learning's characters are not Mary Sue's.... Not at all.
    Zorian has some serious flaws in his character that we see him grow to deal with throughout the novel.
    The same can be said for others characters.
    MoL has some of the most compelling characters I've ever read, this is in part due to how much we see them grow. Not in Power Levels but as people.
     
  19. waleuska

    waleuska Well-Known Member

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    CN=mary sue
    JP=wish fulfillment

    for the most part.
     
  20. ZhaWarudo

    ZhaWarudo TOKI WO TOMARE!!!

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    A good author will avoid both of those extremes and probably won't listen to some idiot teen readers either, if they even have them in their audience.
    On webnovel.com? Yeah but there's literally nothing worth reading there, not even if you say I know right! but check out this gem! Nope, it's the same thing. Anyway it's rare on ff.net I believe, you can find me there and check out my list. I pretty much have all the not dropped, over 100k words awesome action but not trash fanfics XD