Mary Sue. And why it's a "Flawed" Term.

Discussion in 'Author Discussions' started by Ernisius, Dec 21, 2018.

  1. Kaminomikan

    Kaminomikan 神のみ感

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    how can someone write about something they don't know? perfection is unknown to humanity and therefore no author can write a perfect character.

    ps: also you are asking noobs authors to write like pros?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  2. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    You have the same Name there?

    I'd take any opportunity to have a somewhat curated list and not have to trowel through all the garbage.
     
  3. Miri-Bell

    Miri-Bell Semi-crazy Magic Cat

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    Yup, if a story is done well most people won't notice or care that mc is a mary sue. Also there are multiple different types of mary sues not just 1 singular type as even villains can be mary sues if wrote a certain way, but nobody will ever care as long as the author is a great writer.
     
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  4. waleuska

    waleuska Well-Known Member

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    I think it would better to explain it this way.

    Their flaws cannot come back to hunt them.

    One punch man is a great example. The dude is superman but he has no weakness in fighting. Yet, he is bored and refuses to take anything seriously. There is always a chance someone can be killed because he is late to the party. His flaws can get someone killed and cause him grief. Now, that doesn't mean they will but it can happen.
     
  5. Goki-chan

    Goki-chan Active Member

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    I think a Mary Sue is a symptom of lazy writing. Everything in the story revolves around the Mary Sue and the only purpose of anything is to show off how amazing the main character is. A lot of people say Rey from Star Wars is a Mary Sue. I would argue Kim Hajin from The Novels Extra is a similar existence. I don’t know if gender makes the something different.
    They can be fun but either the MC doesn’t act human or everyone else is unnaturally interested.

    I have friends who I think live their lives as their own Mary Sue. They believe everyone’s always watching them specifically. If you find yourself thinking this way, please stop. It’s not good for your health. Also nobody cares. Im definitely not venting here because I’m too scared of saying it to their face. Shut up
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  6. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    'Perfection' Isn't unknown to humanity. Perfection doesn't mean one has to be a messiah, do only good, be strong and smart. Perfection does not care about evil or good. 'Perfection' is... Not a thing people are yet. But it is the act of ever reaching a better state for the self. In whatever sense may that be. While at the same time breaking the shackles that prevents on to do so. With the final purpose of becoming something more than a mere human.
     
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  7. The Great Derc

    The Great Derc Active Member

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    I don't think those two extremes are something that need to be avoided though. Re:Zero had a super incompetent MC, but he struggled and tried over and over till he succeded. Code Geass and Death Note had very competent MCs.
     
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  8. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    My answer to your reply is in this thread somewhere. PS: Mary Sue is a misleading label.
     
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  9. lordbeirut

    lordbeirut Emperor of Perdition

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    Ultimately speaking, it's about plausibility. No one is perfect. No one is without flaws, and the lazy and positively purple prose required for a Mary Sue/Gary Stu character to function is what makes it bad writing. How is it plausible for a character to be good at everything? Even more ludicrous, be BETTER than everyone else at everything? It's especially irksome when the character is young and inexperienced and yet is written to overmatch the older generation, despite lacking a level of training and experience even remotely comparable. How is this PLAUSIBLE? Such characters, through their sheer capability, basically function as permanent Deus ex machina within the story, there's no tension in the story because you just know that regardless what the problem is that character will be able to fix it, even if said character hasn't shown the ability or skill necessary to solve this particular type of problem before, simply because they are THAT capable. The very existence of those individuals is implausible and unrealistic. They are gifted in martial arts, are great blacksmiths, the best alchemists in their age group and even across age/experience groups, are implausibly intelligent, possessing unrealistically sharp tactical acumen. It is the zenith of author-insert and wish-fulfilment.
     
  10. Lewisking50

    Lewisking50 Voidseeker, King of literally nothing

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    I highly recommend watching the following (definitely NOT sarcastic) video on the topic:
     
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  11. Ernisius

    Ernisius Member

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    Have you even read what i wrote in this thread ? If you did you wouldn't have said that same thing others before you tried to 'make seem'.
     
  12. waleuska

    waleuska Well-Known Member

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    i think most of that video is flawed.
     
  13. oblueknighto

    oblueknighto Blue Person

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    Hmm, so you mean that people use the phrase wrong? People are misleading. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes not. Sure some people use the term Mary Sue too broadly but hey people are flawed.
     
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  14. Goki-chan

    Goki-chan Active Member

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    It was Marty Stu!
     
  15. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Mary Sue is not the term for strong, smart, perfect protagonist only. It also refers to infallible and all-knowing protagonist that always shows their superiority where no superiority should exist.

    For example:
    1) Superman. He's so powerful, so strong, so perfect that Stan Lee (or maybe someone else, I don't know) had to create a fictional flaw that doesn't stand on our world so that he doesn't just mow everything down because "I Am Awesome" and a proper story can be told.
    2) The original Mary Sue. She was so smart, she graduated from Starfleet Academy at 13 (maybe 14, I don't remember). She was so smart, she could argue theoretical physics with experts, she could solve engineering problems that Geordi couldn't solve, she could diplomacy her way where Picard failed, she couldsolve every single problem on the Enterprise D and also had love affairs with all the main characters of the Star Trek universe.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  16. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    Its pretty much on spot lmao.
     
  17. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    I think your biggest issue here is that your initial post did an honestly pretty poor job at presenting your point and idea on the subject.
    Only through your subsequent responses and interaction on the thread have we all gotten a real idea of what your thoughts are on the subject and your motivation for addressing it.

    If you want people to properly address your points and not re-tread on past discussions i would edit your first post so it more wholly encompasses and properly explains your views.

    Personally your first post made was a somewhat irksome exercise in trying to comprehend your point, it was only by reading your responses to others that your view become clear. It was explained poorly initially is what i am saying with all these words.
     
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  18. Goki-chan

    Goki-chan Active Member

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    Then you must be a wicked villain! That video may love orphans too much but at least it doesn’t blend cats!
     
  19. lordbeirut

    lordbeirut Emperor of Perdition

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    If you're not perfect, you cannot create something perfect. Perfection begets perfection, as imperfection sires imperfection. Any attempt to create perfection while being imperfect is the zenith of hubris and will only lead to a mockery of perfection, a Lovecraftian nightmare that will only scream your own imperfections and shortcomings.
     
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  20. SAimNE

    SAimNE Well-Known Member

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    If you think you can sympathize with perfection, we found your flaw for you. Narcissism and/or extreme arrogance. Also, sympathizing/empathizing with the story IS what books are made for, so he has a solid point, twat aside.

    I mean why do you think the Superman comics from when he was still broken af focus so much on side chars or collabs with other heroes? It just got old with *randomly creates w.e. is needed for victory as he is a litteral god*. So they relied on seeing that God through the eyes of the peons so people could relate.... And then it got so out of hand they had to nuke the whole thing and give him a handicap
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018