Minting NFT to novel chapters?

Discussion in 'Tech Discussion' started by NodiX, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    So I read Ripple's announcement for support NFT on XRP Ledger, and they do give out grants for developers to develop projects related to XRPL.

    Now, Ripple claims that NFT on XRP Ledger will be 12,000x more efficient than proof-of-work networks. Not sure if current gas price for Ethereum NFT minting is already on proof-of-stack price point, but maybe we can assume that if minting on Ethereum is about $20~$50 then in XRP it can safely mint NFT below $1?

    I haven't that into crypto before, so I have little clue about NFT and the networks, as well how to implement it to benefits webnovel community. But I can assume that it will benefits how authors/translators offering donation chapters for their works as they can just give an option for donators to own the chapters they commission with NFT at a very affordable price.

    What are your thoughts? Would you like to get an NFT token for a novel chapter you donate?

    NOTE: I'm actually interested in developing tools to mint NFT to webnovels, considering a project I'm working on is currently in the process of proposing a grant fund related to XRP ecosystem, but not really about crypto (not the XRPL grant I mentioned earlier). Again, I'm still a noob on crypto, so it can happen but also maybe not--suggestions and guidance are welcomed, though.
     
  2. UnGrave

    UnGrave I really like Nanahira

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    NFT's are one of those things that I regard overall to be a scam piggybacking on the recent hype around crypto. I certainly think it wouldn't really be a viable option for legally grey novel translations.
     
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  3. Shio

    Shio Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really sure about NTF being used for works with mass marketed product with low cost like translation. For what I know:
    1. The registration for NTF is pretty pricey
    2. Some artwork sold using NTF are known to disappear, which is a real bummer.
     
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  4. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    Just because it being hyped by crypto doesn't mean the technology won't have any benefit to real life. The technology itself is innocent. The question is what kind of people who using it and for what purpose. Do you really think authors/translators who ask for donations is doing a scam?

    Groups that gone legit do pay a large amount of money for licenses and authors who haven't been contracted with big webnovel platforms will definitely need an upgraded business model to have better chances to get their investment returned or make an actual profit. We can't just say they don't deserve help for their works just because someone else working on legally grey projects; small-time publishers will be stuck in having to resort to paywall business model for license if we always have that kind of attitude.

    1. As I said in my original post, I'm talking about XRP's NFT that 12,000x more efficient as they claimed to be. If what they make a comparassion to is current NFT price, then it could be up to 12,000x more cheaper than current NFT solutions.

    2. Many NFT token disappearance has been investigated and people will learn how to make NFT more durable as time goes by. Many of the cases happened because 404 errors. When people using NFT they don't put the actual file to the blockchain, but a token linking to a real file somewhere in a server--and when it comes to artworks, people tend to use third-party server to store them. If the file was taken down then the NFT link will be empty. There are many ways to mitigate this, putting the actual file to an immutable and more durable protocol like IPFS, for example. And that is not to say webnovels and artworks are very different type of content, and how we handle the hosting of the two just like apples and oranges these days.

    I don't even think they already have best practices for NFT at this point. NFT is a very young technology and we can't just expect it to be working flawlessly right from the get-go. But that is not really an excuse for us to dismiss any technology that eventually could provide opportunities and benefits for the community if it executed well. There's really no harm in experimenting with NFT because today, readers already donate money to authors regardless they gain ownership of the chapters or not.
     
  5. Rumby

    Rumby Rumbly Tumbly

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    Besides the money laundering and other abuse that happens in the nft space due to it being unregulated. (And ignoring eco stuff )

    I don’t think nft minting is a good idea as crypto is not easy accessible as there are banking bans in places like China and Canada , possibly seen as cyber crime in Korea, and illegal in Egypt.
    Though nft are being hyped I heard the bubble bursted in May, so it seems volatile and unstable.. and overall seems limited to who would even have it.

    And usually don't you have to pay fees to do or add anything to a blockchain like minting and gas and listing fees? So it seems like a massive waste of money that is spent on upholding the servers/ chains that could easily just go to tl pocket without needing to mint it.
    Like people can already sell ebooks and get support on patreon, so nft doesn’t solve selling books digitally , just another place where cryptobros can spend their crypto ( when they could just cash out their crypto and spend real money honestly )



    Also heard you can’t remove anything from the blockchain so if a tl puts a translation up on there (if it’s actual text not a hyperlink url which latter is currently the trend for nft)
    And the author / publisher goes after them, the tl would be in trouble since they forcibly cannot remove the translation to abide to dmca. So the author/ publisher could easily sue and win, possibly shutting down not only tl but the server the blockchain is on because the blockchain is complicit for allowing illegal translations on it.


    And idk how you would deal with aggregators or thieves abusing this system, they could just rip off works and mint it to make bank and continue. Would u screen them before they join and try to mint? Nft currently don’t have this system so that’s why art thieves are rampant on it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  6. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    It does seem you confuse NFT with cryptocurrencies. They are based on blockchain but not the same thing.

    I already said something about 12,000x more cheaper literally in my post above you, and in my first post.

    I have no clue what do you mean by this. I don't have any plan something grand like solve selling books digitally. Anyone can still sell ebooks and open a Patreon account. Experimenting with NFT just the means to explore other business models on webnovel.

    Just because unlicensed fans translators can't do it doesn't mean others who have the license can't. If you believe this will put you into trouble then maybe don't do it.

    I can't really imagine how people would steal a chapter of a novel and sell it to make a bank. The reason why NFT artworks can fetch a high price because the artwork itself becomes valuable once you own the an unique proof of ownership to it, not because the NFT itself. People don't really sell and buy a chapter of a novel as a commodity.
     
  7. Rumby

    Rumby Rumbly Tumbly

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    " It does seem you confuse NFT with cryptocurrencies. They are based on blockchain but not the same thing."

    • wth. It seems you are thinking they're different spaces but they're not. You buy NFTs with crypto.

      How are they not the same market and space when they literally use crypto as payment method?
      When you mint an nft you are minting on a blockchain to get a nonfungible token.

      This ledger thing you're interested in just sounds like another blockchain to me or else why would they even think of having NFTs?
      NFTs are only blockchain / crypto related.
      To point out specifically you can buy NFTs with bitcoin and ethereum and other crypto on nft blockchains like wax.io. So they are damn related.




    "I already said something about 12,000x more cheaper literally in my post above you, and in my first post."

    • Yeah that's the same mumbo jumbo with no real numbers to back this up.
    • I've seen artists say minting 1 NFT can be 80-100+ this is not including gas fees or hidden fees. Saying it's 12000x cheaper doesn't add up to it'd 1 or less to mint more like a negative number, so just saying it sounds like you'd be paying people to mint and make NFTs, and that's why I ignored it whenever you mentioned it.
    • But you can clearly sell novel chapters or translations without any minting so this why I don't care about you saying it's cheaper.
    • If it's 0 bucks or you pay translators to post then that's worth considering.



    "I have no clue what do you mean by this. I don't have any plan something grand like solve selling books digitally. Anyone can still sell ebooks and open a Patreon account. Experimenting with NFT just the means to explore other business models on webnovel. "

    • So I guess you're unaware and should look way more into what you're getting into instead of trying to defend stuff you have 0 idea about.
      The reason why people push for NFTs because it was supposed to solve authenicity and ownership proof. So the idea was you could buy an NFT Art and have the unique token on the blockchain proving you own the unique artwork like a receipt.

    • However current NFTs are not even solving this problem, instead created more problems that don't exist. People essentially are just buying the token no rights of anything (Because rights can only be given with explicit contract, the artist can still sell their art elsewhere or even mint it on different platform even. Besides the art and/or platform could just disappear.)

    • Secondly as I mentioned before, art thieves steal art and sell NFTs. They are not the owner but make bank off stolen art, as nft platforms do not care to check and verify.

    • So I 100% think if you experiment with this NFT novel ideas you should solve this issue because that'd be the purpose of NFTs.

    • But seeing how you don't even give a damn nor care, I guess I was mentioning for no reason.



    "Just because unlicensed fans translators can't do it doesn't mean others who have the license can't. If you believe this will put you into trouble then maybe don't do it."
    • I'm agreeing with this point, but I guess you don't care if you could wind up trouble too so I will move on from this point.


    "I can't really imagine how people would steal a chapter of a novel and sell it to make a bank. The reason why NFT artworks can fetch a high price because the artwork itself becomes valuable once you own the an unique proof of ownership to it, not because the NFT itself. People don't really sell and buy a chapter of a novel as a commodity."
    • I just said there are aggregator sites out there who steal chapters and make bank (they do the whole make website and make money from ad revenue or flat out paywalls). So saying you can't imagine when it's actually happens doesn't negate my point at all.
    • Also people do sell and buy chapters as a commodity as seen on munpia and gumroad so you talk as if selling chapters doesn't exist, but it does exist.



    Overall it seems you don't care and choose to ignore the issues with NFTs and don't understand what they are. Don't think you should lecture people when you clearly said you don't even know crypto that much, and wanted opinions. Would think it make sense you should try to solve issues that are found in NFTs to make them more likeable and comparable to current business markets where there is no fees to self-publish.

    I gave my opinions and said I'm not for it because of the issues I see with it. Like as an artist myself, I would not pay to mint my art or make my customers do illegal transactions and pay more fees, when I can easily avoid it all together and pay 0 fees 0 gas tax without minting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  8. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    It's actually say you buy a bread with a dollar. A bread is a bread, a dollar is a dollar. You worry about NFT because the volatility of cryptocurrency but even if the crypto market crash NFTs will still exist regardless because they just different byproduct of blockchain.

    Please do read the article I linked in my first post. The NFT you've seen and the NFT I'm talking about are different because they are settled on different network. XRP does have settlement mechanism that far more efficient than traditional crypto like Bitcoin and Ethereum, and the technology behind it was used by banks across the world. And this network has just announced their plan to support NFT, I don't think they have real NFTs token exist on their mainnet yet.

    The reason I have no idea about this is because no one really have minting NFT to webnovel to date. I'm sure there's problems and challenge to it, but to point out existing problems on minting NFT artworks is besides the point because they solve different problem and different assets. It's like you won't have the same problem when you own an NFT for artworks and when you own NFT for a share of a real estate.

    Please do keep in mind what I'm really looking for is feedbacks for NFT on webnovels, not NFT artworks. Any further in-depth discussions on NFT artworks should be regarded as out of topic.

    When authors sell books they sell the permissions for readers to, well, read it. What they own is a copy of the book, not the book itself. Not to mention I'm looking to see if there's options to sell an ownership of a particular single chapter, though other solutions might came up too. I'm looking for different possible solutions that NFTs could provide.

    Well, sorry if my replies sound like lecturing. I'm replying as it is when I'm doing something else so I can't tone my words to sound it nicer. The reason why I choose to ignore issues replied here because I wanted opinions on NFTs on webnovel, not artworks. Please do keep in mind I will really ignore any further discussions about minting NFT on artworks because I do think it is already out of topic.
     
  9. Rumby

    Rumby Rumbly Tumbly

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    So basically you don't want any replies because NFTs on webnovels don't exist. OK

    I don't think anything I said was offtopic because it's NFT related but wow.

    The similar issues that happen on NFT with art will happen with NFT with novels. Writing is still considered an art form. So you should stop talking about webnovels too it's an art and offtopic. Such a hypocrite.
     
  10. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't exist because I plan to try creating one from scratch. I am willing to take feedback for it but what I'm getting on is problems that exists for another medium, which is not what I'm looking for. It wasn't that much off the topic previously but I do think it's getting more and more derailed now that it's not about webnovel anymore. Writing and drawing are an art form but they are being distributed and consumed differently, and I can't just take the same business model as NFT artworks to provide value for Webnovel because they are in two completely different industries. It will be different story if we're talking about manga though. But we don't here and I'm looking for discussions strictly related to webnovel, because this is a forum for webnovel, not a forum for artworks.

    Well, sorry for being a hypocrite to you.
     
  11. Rumby

    Rumby Rumbly Tumbly

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    Lots of novels do have art covers too though.. but OK

    Um I gave you problem with stolen chapters by aggregators who make money off of them, but you chose to ignore it and now you're just saying I ONLY give irrelevant problems that exist in different industry... seeing you can't imagine people stealing chapters to make money of off it......... Wow what BS.

    I wasn't even pushing for the art part of it, but you said I didn't understand NFTs. The only NFTs out there are art & music & game related so of course I'm gonna talk about what exists because hey I do know what NFTs are.
    Which you don't want to talk about Art NFT's which seems weird to ignore as you're using Art NFT's as a basis of your new NFT novel idea.....
    I get they're not the same item, but I don't see why you feel they're so different as you can definitely sell art , music, games, and novels on Amazon/Gumroad/etc. They're all commodities. They can be different markets but they definitely can be similar because they can be sold on same platform.


    And you don't have to respond to me anymore. So far your arguments really doesn't hold any water to me at all frankly seeing how every rebuttal seem to be flawed. I only wanted to keep pointing out things that don't make sense, and don't work if you keep pushing for those points.
     
  12. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    Please let me know where I'm explicitly said you didn't understand about NFTs and I will apologize for that for the third time :blobconfounded::blobconfounded::blobconfounded:

    Really, any discussions about whether novel or artworks related as artform isn't that useful for me because at the end of the day I'm the one who will have to struggle with practical stuff like code, given if I will really make it because I'm losing interest because of this thread already. I can't just make a marketplace where you can buy and sell copyright for a novel like they do with artworks because people don't buy novels' copyright that way.
     
  13. Jeebus

    Jeebus Well-Known Member

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    NFTs are cool in that they provide a mechanism of ownership for a completely digital good. My issue with them is that they do nothing to prevent the dissemination of the underlying data.

    As for unlicensed web novels, what is there to be gained from having proof of ownership of a work that would get you sued if you tried to publish or otherwise make money off of it? For licensed web novels, it could be useful, but what publisher on earth would agree to allow strangers online own a part of its work.

    If you can think of a good way to make NFTs for web novels work, that would be awesome. Every way I try to envision it, it just seems like an extra step in the process.
     
  14. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    Yes, many from traditional license holder publishers might not want to share part of their ownership and might not interested in sharing them via NFT minting. There might be other use cases for conventional publishers might benefit from NFT that I'm still couldn't think of, which probably will show itself when more and more people use NFTs in their works. Current donation model to share NFT tokens for novel chapter is just me having a thought on slipping NFT tech into webnovel scene, which could be used by smaller publishers and authors to reinforce a sense of belonging and loyalty with their readers, which is what I think the easiest way to get NFT starting in webnovel scene.

    The ultimate way we can use NFTs for webnovel that I could think of is to having split ownership of a license like how NFTs are being used in real estate. This could provide a good way for unlicensed translators to get crowdfunding from their readers and from the community to buy the novel license, and perhaps we can use NFTs to do a record for dividend revenue sharing so that translators can answer to their investors. However, to get to that point I'm pretty sure will need quite a lot of the legworks and the foundation for it, and the requirement is that many potential investors in the community have at least a good understanding of how NFTs work for webnovel, which, at this point, nobody knows how it's going like to be.

    This is not to say I will actually develop it. My main work is about payment and revenue sharing, news of XRP based NFT just got on my radar and I previously happen to be very interested in it. This could be actually happening or maybe I won't do it, as I will prioritize my work first for the next few months. Not to mention XRP based NFT is still too early to adopt, anyway.
     
  15. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    Finally get a hold of minting NFT fee for XRP network. It's 12 drops of XRP which will be equivalent of 0.000012 XRP, which is equivalent as the time of I write this comment as 0.00001141 USD. Because of the almost non-existent minting fee (and no transfer fee) you'll need to put a Trust line to receive minted tokens for a new account that acts for reserve balance. In the proposal written back in February the amount of trustline needed for NFT transfer is 5 XRP, but someone here claimed it to be 2 XRP.

    Source: https://write.as/huub/introduction-to-nft-on-the-xrp-ledger
     
  16. MasterCuddler

    MasterCuddler Handsome Chicken with his Paradise

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    Idk what and how it would be possible but this sounds interesting. You think this would work for the anime industry too? :hmm:
     
  17. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    This is actually not that strange if we mention that Patreon creators already give their patrons right to vote how they're going to make their arts. Introducing NFT to this is just to make it more efficient and systematic, apart to make it accessible for developers to automate the processes.

    As for the anime industry part; a big part source of income for anime studios are selling license for broadcast/streaming platform, not to mention the ownership of an IP-licensed anime will be entangled after adaptions and investors included, which will definitely become a mess if tokenized ownership of IP introduced which I'm pretty sure that there's no clear guideline for it in the IP law community. I don't think we'll see any NFT tokenized ownership anytime soon to anime industry, except for indie studios/artists who fund their projects through crowdfunding platforms such as Patreon or Kickstarters. Although, to be honest, I think we'll see collectible NFT tokens first to anime industry for NFT use case than any solutions that I'm previously proposed.

    Sorry for late reply, I missed this because I didn't receive notification.
     
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  18. MasterCuddler

    MasterCuddler Handsome Chicken with his Paradise

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    Don’t worry about the late reply, the information you gave makes up for it:blobokhand:
     
  19. Jeebus

    Jeebus Well-Known Member

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    I'm dubious of this as a usecase. Unless popular texting apps adopt NFT emojis or something, there's nothing to do with collectible NFTs. Even then, nothing would prevent a user from just texting an image of an NFT collectible sans the proof of ownership. Unless you're speculatively investing in collectible NFTs to flip in the future, there's nothing inherently special about proof of ownership over a digital asset that can easily be copied and distributed.

    Maybe I'm just jaded about previous crypto promises that have never materialized. I can't use crypto to pay for food, gas, rent, or much of anything, really. I'm still waiting for conventional storefronts, like Amazon or Walmart, to accept crypto as payment for products and services. As it stands, I have nothing to do with my crypto assets except to sit on them or sell them to an investor. I'm expecting the same thing to happen with NFTs for digital assets - cool in theory, useless in practice.

    I'm not hating on NFTs. I think they have potential to replace physical tokens in real-world scenarios, like ticketing systems for concerts and movies. I just don't see the draw in proof of ownership for digital assets that can be easily copied.

    EDIT:
    And before anyone mentions NFTs for games, let me remind you that the only reason gachas and loot boxes are allowed for gamers of all ages in most of the world is because you can't trade or sell anything you get. If gacha rewards come in the form of NFTs, that would be considered gambling in most of the world since NFTs can be traded for real money.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  20. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to delve too deeply into collectible NFT since that's not the main topic of this thread. However, I do want to point out that collectible NFT on video medium already explored in other industries, which could work to anime/manga/webnovel industry to some extent.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/28/230-million-dollars-spent-on-nba-top-shot.html
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lawren...ies-and-streaming-the-next-frontier-for-nfts/