NUF 2nd Anniversary Main Thread. After a bit of Delay we can finally get things started ~ The group/team Debates will finally begin \ (^w^) / Spoiler: Interested Parties @rfu12 @Fossil @Arcturus @NZPIEFACE @shad12ow @MangoGuy @cellimen45 @a101011 @Suijin @Potatos @Allchemic @Pyoo @brasca123 @BlancFrost @blee8 @Das ============================= The first team competition will begin immediately ~ *cough* well, now that the first stumble has happened we can (probably) actually start. Debaters should tag me for your posts so that relevant post can be added in the original post. Spoiler: FAQ Q: Why am I suddenly a participant when I thought I was a judge? A: Well the debates actually didn't get as much attention as we'd thought they would and we in fact have only 9 Participants and 2 already clarified that they don't want to be involved in the team debates. Therefore we only have 7 Participants with which to debate. Considering that the teams are 3 person each we're just barely meeting the numbers for a debating round. Therefore we couldn't make you judge exclusively else we wouldn't be able to make any teams unless the number of persons per team is slashed. Thus our in-between is that you are free to judge matches that you as a judge are not participating in, however you can't judge matches you happen to get drawn for. Q: As a person who's not taking part in the debates can I post my own opinions and questions? A: The debate format can be seen in the feedback thread, but the debates are composed of 4 Phases, and in the last phase for Questioning/Judging you can question, state opinions and whatever you wish to do. However please refrain till then. Q: Can we use any sources we desire? A: Yes, there are no restrictions on sources as long as they're veritable. Q: Do I need to post the presentation as one big post, or can I split it into multiple smaller posts? A: Response
The first round will begin: topic: Paywalls! Yay or nay? Teams: Yay Faction; @Arcturus , @Potatos Nay Faction; @cellimen45 , @MangoGuy The debate format is: Declaration of Teams & Topic Research Phase (3 Days) Presentation Phase (1 Day) Counter Argument & Defense Phase (2 Days) Judging Phase (2 Day) Questioning from non-participant players(Indefinite) The Research Phase has Ended! You'll have a 1 hr break, between the end and the Presentation phase. Thus the presentation phase will end on Sept 25th, 9pm GMT - 5 Countdown
@kyuukestu Team: @cellimen45 and @MangoGuy Topic: Paywalls: Yay or Nay? Stance: Nay. Paywall refers to an arrangement on a website such that access is restricted to users who have paid to subscribe to the site. Today, in particular, we would like to talk about sites which host translations of literary works, and also sites which host original literary works. Also, with regards to the definition of paywalls, we would also like to highlight the point that ordinary members who haven't paid are not able to enjoy the services even temporarily. We would also like to recognize the major stake holders in this decision as: The readers The translators/original content creators The site/organization that host the works Now, we would first like to list out the main reasons why we believe paywalls are not good before elaborating on each Readers are encouraged to patronize pirate sites, causing the unfortunate bloom of the pirate industry. In the current translation field, paywalls don't guarantee higher/stabler incomes for the translators, contradicting one of the major reasons for its adoption. It has a direct negative impact on both the readers, and also the translation community as a whole, especially upcoming/small-time translators. There is no legit guarantee/trust. This can have a very adverse impact on the translator-reader relationship on the long term. In our further posts, we will be elaborating on each of the above points, while also providing you with an actual example about why paywalls are not as good as they may seem at first glance. We will also be providing you with a suggestion for an alternative.
@kyuukestu Readers are encouraged to patronize pirate sites, causing the unfortunate bloom of the pirate industry.
@kyuukestu 2) In the current translation field, paywalls don't guarantee higher/stabler incomes for the translators, contradicting one of the major reasons for its adoption.
@kyuukestu 3) It has a direct negative impact on both the readers, and also the translation community as a whole, especially upcoming/small-time translators.
@kyuukestu 4)There is no legit guarantee/trust. This can have a very adverse impact on the translator-reader relationship on the long term.
@kyuukestu Our argument against paywall could never be over without the mention of a rather high profile fail of the very system. And this involves news agencies. An Example of the Failure of Paywall
@kyuukestu We would now like to further strengthen our case, by suggesting methods that are superior to the paywall system. The Alternatives
@kyuukestu Conclusion We would like to conclude by saying that even if the alternative methods we suggested may have their flaws, they are definitely far better than the paywall system, whether you consider the short term impact or the long term shadow. And this is when considering all of the three stakeholders. Thus, the paywall system should not be encouraged in the current translation scenario, for the good of the community, considering that we already have the example of a failure right in front of our eyes in the form of the e-news system. Team: @cellimen45 and @MangoGuy
Well, from here on out the debates will be less of a competition and more of a free-lance thread. Feel free to post your opinions on any of the topics listen in the first post (to be updated). The winners of the first competition, are @MangoGuy & @cellimen45 !! *Rains confetti* After giving them a round of applause, we will directly jump to the viewer questioning phase. Feel free to read through their presentation and add your own two cents on the matter, whether you be agreeing or disagreeing. Spoiler: Mass Tag courtsey of ??? @AardwarkThe2nd @Aca1814ina @Action @amilhs @AndrewOrion @andykhang @Arcadia Blade@archduke @ArianDruj @Ars @Bielt @BlancFrost @blee8 @BPLeon @brasca123 @BunnyPillow@Clozdark @craBebe @Cyrus King @Dayfinder @Devils Advocate @Dragn555 @Drakolous Maxima @ducpika @ExitedDeviljho @Fabulist Ed @falcon92 @faststomps @Fierbras@Fluffy13unny @Friickina @Ged Merrilin @gheist1234 @GilgameshX2114 @Gitami @Hazery@HELLiCOPter @holyshin @HumanSashimi @iampsyx @Imnotarobot @imsodone @Jigoku Shounen @jmf028 @jzar @Kagami Ren @kenkenkang @Kickuck @Koalala @kryner @L4@LaDyViL @Liron @LoneSoul @Lost Panda @MangoGuy @MasterCuddler @Mazino @mayy@Minaku @Mister Div @Mizura @mrezman @Myross17 @Nahrenne @Nbhan101 @NiQuinn@Novela @Novice @Nurman @NZPIEFACE @Omnifarious @Ophious @Osamaru @Pandamonic@Phantomask @Phillipsi @Pyoo @Rajikai @rawuyu @Recouer @RRL Vocaloid @ScipioM @Senros@seriouslynope @Setra @Slayerwolfx2 @shad12ow @Siostar @Slayerwolfx2 @Snowdust@SnowTime @SpearOfLies @Teivel @TheJackWrite @Tramsloof @Trane @Twilight Fox@Underload @Yash @Yggdrasil108 @yuzuki @Zek @Zero300 @Zone Q11
RRL supermod here but nothing I say here is the opinion of RRL itself. Just my own two cents. Got pinged so might as well participate. One thing about paywalls over on RRL is that authors are putting down paywalls of their own accord via Patreon. Patreon unlike donations require less money than donations for a single chapter and grant only those who donated access to the newer chapters. This is also happening on translation sites with a lot of success. I personally believe the paywall system is already here and here to stay, disguised behind the term donations and offsite so the extra chapters aren't readily visible on the main site to remind people there's a paywall. The whole tirade against paywalls in the translation scene is against Qidian and more for their recent actions than the paywall itself. Paywall is just a term this community is hostile to because we're used to reading things for free. The fact is that this community is fine with paywalls as long as it becomes free later on and most are willing to wait. A solid paywall that never goes down would be far less successful unless the series was extremely popular and unlocking chapters was very cheap. Even then, a lot of people would just pirate. Which I assume Qidian would've played the role of an example for a solid paywall people were still willing to pay for if not for their actions that alienated a large percentage of the community. Not that this alienation will stop them from trying anyways and likely succeeding. The problem with a lot of Mango Guy's arguments is that they rely on comparisons to a field that can't be compared to novels and that they're a bit idealistic. People can read news anywhere and a lot of topics are covered by multiple outlets. It's a situation where competition is strong and free options are always there. In the novel scene, there's just one publisher and generally, one translator and multiple group translations aren't always the best. So that just leaves the pirates, aggregate sites that we readers are also hostile towards for stealing "good" translations and scripts that most users don't understand or don't bother looking up. The very fact that Qidian is still around proves they still have a solid fanbase despite all of the hate, the adwalls, the suspicious app, and rumors of a paywall. While a solid chunk of this fanbase claim that they'll stop if the paywall actually happens, most won't. They are definite proof that paywalling will happen in this community and will be partially successful. Just like microtransactions in video gaming. Everyone says they hurt the community and are pointless yet the games with them keep buying them up and people keep buying microtransactions, keeping the technique alive and coming back and back again. Now I'm not a supporter of Qidian nor do I support paywalls. I'm just a realist. And I feel like if I was a part of this debate on the Yay side, the Nay side would not have won.
@kyuukestu While I'm on the Nay party 100% in this topic(since I'm a proud leecher).. Does the Yay party have any presentation of their side?? I know it is quite difficult to research regarding the positive effect of Paywalls, what with the stance of NU as a whole and the various disadvantages that it will and can bring to our community, but I'm the kind of person that is interested in reading the opinions of both sides. for the drama lol Also, good job Nay Party That presentation rocks!
Hmmm, I though I was signed up for the NUF 2nd Anniversary Team Death Battle for a moment there. Back to the debate, it's not really much of a debate if it's just one side stating their opinions #clearlynotstatingtheobvious.
I will talk about paywall (as in support). Humans have this quirk, they always tend to shift the blame to someone or something. For murders, guns are responsible. For accidents, cars. And for a not so good success, paywall. In short, consider the quote 'Wars are fought by weapons but won by men' What we deliberately choose to ignore is, all of the above are merry tools that are in the hands of its user, who must be held responsible for their use, and not the tool itself. Paywall, is only a method to gain revenue, similar to ads or donation. If someone is ignorant to apply paywall on a platform that doesn't go well with it, who should be to blame here? We talk about paywall and that its bad and should not be here. Here, again we are wrong, wrong not as in disliking paywall but wrong in choosing to ignore that it is already here, but not in its truest of form. We will discuss about this more after we talk a little about donations and ads as form of revenue. Donations and ads are widely favoured by the users or customers as a mode of revenue, the main reason would be that everyone can enjoy the content for free, while the provider can still earn a revenue. Lets talk about some of the drawbacks we choose to ignore about it, Uncertain and irregular income for the provider that is hard to estimate Donation for a chapter is more costly when some people have to pay for everybody, this is how government works. But when a person only chooses to pay for himself, it is cheaper for him, though everybody else is either left behind(patereon) or just exiled (paywall). Ads are annoying for both the users and provider, things get complicated, users use adblocks, the revenue here is very hard to earn compared to paywall or donations. Since we have gone through the above, you should know that the paywall is here. Qidian has an adwall, which in my view is much better than its true paywall, and we have patreon running wild, which actually is the true paywall, you pay to read or you dont read. Websites like wuxiaworld are smart and they dont want to, Seperate paywall from their own website, keeping their website free but slower (patreon vs their main sites) Create an idea that paywall is seperate from patreon, which is donation, that has been going on since the ancient times. Now the main reason people will support either of adwall, paywall or any such mode of revenue compared to simple donations are that not everybody contributes in simple donations and ads,mand those that contribute, contribute for everybody making it more expensove for themselves. And to above, instead of a paywall or patreon, I believe adwall is much more feasible if it can be applied well, wince it too is just a tool. The community we have, is not ready for a paywall in its truest of forms. But one thing is for sure, if free websites and content is taken down and paywalled it all, this will create a widespread piracy, and these pirates would then earn through ads and donations. What can be done is, keep the free as it is, and let it continue being free with ads. And the bonus chapters which are currently under a paywall should find a way to move under an adwall so everybody can have an opportunity to contribute, be it not through purely paying money or spirit stones. Qidian has done well here, still I refuse to read there due to other qualms.