[Poll] Justice and Sexual Violence

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by lychee, Sep 12, 2019.

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Which Oracle orb would you prefer that the World Government take?

  1. Orb A: 100% sensitive 60% specific

    1 vote(s)
    1.2%
  2. Orb B: 95% sensitive 65% specific

    2 vote(s)
    2.4%
  3. Orb C: 90% sensitive 70% specific

    2 vote(s)
    2.4%
  4. Orb D: 80% sensitive 80% specific

    2 vote(s)
    2.4%
  5. Orb E: 70% sensitive 90% specific

    6 vote(s)
    7.1%
  6. Orb D: 65% sensitive 95% specific

    2 vote(s)
    2.4%
  7. Orb F: 60% sensitive 100% specific

    27 vote(s)
    31.8%
  8. I like our current justice system better

    3 vote(s)
    3.5%
  9. I don't like our current justice system, but these magic orbs aren't the answer

    35 vote(s)
    41.2%
  10. No opinion

    5 vote(s)
    5.9%
  1. Traveling Chef

    Traveling Chef ⁽ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ╯.+:。Professional Unichef~

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    All I have to say is; if you wish to talk about judging rape, don't conflate it with murder. stay on topic.

    what I think Summer is getting at(at least I hope) is without evidence there is no case for rape/murder. not that it didn't happen

    based on a justice system, unless a body or reasonable evidence of murder (for example a large enough quantity of blood) are found, there would be no case for murder. regardless of one having actually happened. same goes for rape, unfortunately, if there is no reasonable evidence of rape a case for rape won't be Tried. regardless of one having taken place.

    the worst problem of the orb scenario is the tons of criminal who won't eve see an orb because, they used drugs, they transitioned to murder following the rape, the victim was too traumatized to say anything, or the vitim flatout blanked the whole thing from there head and never reported it. or any number of scenarios that prevent the rapist/victim ever making it to a courtroom
     
  2. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    1) After @A5G_Reaper's comment, I thought about how this might occur.

    The color of the orb works similarly to serology, or perhaps like the tuberculosis test in medicine.

    Every time an individual performs a criminal act, there is a probability that their serology will turn positive for the rest of their life. For the sake of argument, let's say that one act of rape has an associated 50% chance that your magical aura will turn red for the rest of your life. If you are a repeat offender, it's highly likely that your orb will be red.

    Repeating a test in the short term will always give the same result.

    2) Magic! XD It's for the sake of the story~ In reality, a high sensitivity and high specificity test is often performed in combination for many things.
     
  3. Simon

    Simon [The Pure One's Chief Steward][Demon Beast]

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    What happens when victims orbs says she was raped by the accused and the accuses orb says he is innocent.

    With the false percentage, I believe the FBI uses 8%.
     
  4. Liron

    Liron Well-Known (Failed) Prophet

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    Well, I don’t fully agree with the statement about rape she made, but I can see why she said that. On why I don’t agree, it is exactly the reasons you stated in the thread, usual lack of evidence, victim not denouncing, no witnesses, etc, which makes rape very different from murder and why your comparison is innately wrong. You are trying to see murder through parameters used for rape, which of course makes no sense. What Summer did was actually the inverse of what you did, which I find interesting.

    And of course I will try to look at things from a legal system’s point of view, they are a reflection of society and that is the reason they can be changed. As I said, if enough people few a law or definition is wrong, it can be changed. Those definitions are used when applying laws for a reason, after all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  5. SummerForest

    SummerForest Sadness. Happiness. Togetherness.

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    Yes, I wanted to say that there won't be any 'case' of rape and without the legal case there's no question of convicting a person.
     
  6. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    Huh? Was that what she meant? I kind of read what @SummerForest wrote literally:

     
  7. Liron

    Liron Well-Known (Failed) Prophet

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    Yeah, I think she meant it as in not existing a case there.
     
  8. SummerForest

    SummerForest Sadness. Happiness. Togetherness.

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    Sorry mate, I should have pointed out that I was talking about rape from the legal point of it.
    I don't want to talk about rape from other than legal point of view. It is a highly debatable issue.
    In my country, there's a serious debate going on right now over the matter of marital rape. We all know that marital rape happens, but is it an offence liable to be tried in the court of law? That's the point of debate.
     
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  9. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    @Traveling Chef @Liron @SummerForest

    To be honest, I'm still totally lost XD

    I'm not sure where everything about a "case" is coming in when frankly I was mostly just interested in the capacity of a justice system to reach a verdict consistent with objective reality.

    As for the hypothetical system I had written in the OP, by some regards I had written it as circumventing a conventional judicial trial through the judicial system. Notably, I had written that the orb would be utilized at the point of accusation, not at the point of indictment. Those are two very different positions temporally during the judicial system. Whether or not there is sufficient evidence to press initial charges is technically irrelevant with the manner the question is framed.

    Philosophically speaking, the meaning behind this is that a 100% orb is a device of objective reality.

    Frankly, it is my personal opinion that there is no defense to be made if you assume an objective reality as ground truth.

    A murderer is a murderer regardless if evidence exists, and similarly speaking as it is for a rapist.
     
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  10. Traveling Chef

    Traveling Chef ⁽ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ╯.+:。Professional Unichef~

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    some things I would like to know about how this orb judges is, if a woman with rape fantasies hired a man to rape her, how would this be decided? the woman wanted it but she hired a man to specifically break into her house and have his way with her regardless of what she says.

    the man, in this case, is innocent and the woman isn't a victim and while to the outside he is guilty and she a victim.

    let's take this a step further. how would it judge if a man was hired to fulfill a woman's rape fantasies, break into her home, and have his way with her sexually regardless of what she says? similar scenario but the kicker? he wasn't hired by the woman who wanted the fantasies, he was hired by a third party. whats more the woman in question doesn't have rape fantasies.
    to him he is innocent. to her he is guilty. the third party didn't commit rape but they set it up and under the criminal justice system would be guilty more so than the "rapist" in this scenario.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...t-her-exs-wife-authorities-say/?noredirect=on
     
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  11. Traveling Chef

    Traveling Chef ⁽ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ╯.+:。Professional Unichef~

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    I would like to point out that every orb you have listed would judge the man in the second scenario as guilty. even if he didn't know he was really raping a woman, he still had his way with her regardless of her intentions.


    and on that note we both agree~
     
  12. Liron

    Liron Well-Known (Failed) Prophet

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    I agree, but here is the thing, we are not objective beings and we will never know the objective truth. We would need to be omniscient to reach that level, which is why “God will make it right after death” exists in the first place. What we can do is set rules and parameters, aka laws and definitions, to be as fair as possible to try to come to a judgement with always lacking information. But you are not theoretically wrong, no, it is just that in the real world there is no absolutes, which is why we make compromises and try to always protect the innocent.

    So, if there is not a body we can’t be sure that there was a murder. A compromise is made by the law to protect potential suspects (that are also potential innocents) and the person is considered missing, although, if the person was truly killed, yes, there is a murderer and there was a murder, it is just that we will most likely never know.
     
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  13. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    Huh, I don't even know how our justice system would handle this. I don't study law so these things are quite opaque to me.

    I would assume our justice system often has a question of intent somewhere in the process.

    You seem to imply that someone who did something with good intentions shouldn't be guilty, even if the outcome itself is bad.

    It's not quite clear to me how I stand on this premise, or even how a majority of people in our respective cultures think about this! It's a peculiar question I don't know how to answer!
     
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  14. SummerForest

    SummerForest Sadness. Happiness. Togetherness.

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    @lychee when you talked about a justice system, invariably a case of rape was to be made. How can you convict someone without a legal case?
    I once talked with an activist who said that there was a case in which a woman accused the offender of rape even when only her clothes were torn. She said that the trauma she faced was no less than the actual act of rape.
     
  15. Zomula

    Zomula Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the answer but that leads to another. If a person serves their sentence and is later falsely accused would they still be "guilty" because of their previous offence or would the orb have a function that "cured" their guilt after they were released? If they would still be guilty then the problem of false imprisonments would still be a problem even with orb f that is 100% specific. How about if they committed a crime that was never reported or that had its statute of limitations expire? Could they be found guilty of a false accusation if the orb turns red because of those previous unreported crimes or uncharged crimes? Assume that these are all in the context of orb f being used.
     
  16. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    It depends on the underlying groundwork of the legal system of your country.

    If you live in a dictatorship you could certainly be incarcerated without a case or trial by jury.

    In the OP, the scenario is framed as an amendment to whatever judicial process is common in your country. If we want to speak legalese, you could say that it's an extrajudical process. The justice orb is a magical device that circumvents whatever underlying systems you have, and instead produces an outcome that is to be enforced.

    As for the relevance of this to real life, machine learning is becoming increasingly prevalent in real life.

    There is software being developed that is capable of reading a CT scan to determine if someone has a pulmonary embolism, and it has a certain sensitivity and specificity. The premise is that no doctor or clinician needs to read it. All the machine does is spit out a YES or NO answer that could determine the outcome of someone's life. And there's also a probability the machine could be wrong.

    It is not difficult to conceptualize a similar approach with machine learning applied to criminal justice, particularly in more authoritarian countries like China were video surveillance and big data is increasingly creeping everywhere. In the United States, we do use algorithms to identity terrorists too, although such a thing would never fly in a criminal proceeding.
     
  17. Traveling Chef

    Traveling Chef ⁽ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ╯.+:。Professional Unichef~

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    it's not that they did something with good intentions, it's more like they were tricked into a situation where they were believing everything to be in good fun when in reality this was not the case.

    in the actual case, I mentioned it was an Ex of the husband going after his wife. she posed as his wife and set up a few men to come rape "herself". thankfully the wife(who was pregnant at the time) was able to stop one of the men(there were at least six hired) who showed up before the police arrived. the man fled knowing he had almost committed rape for real. and the crazy woman who hired them went to jail.

    in our justice system intent is taken into account, because of the specificity of it. depending on the way the case is presented the man could have gotten off because he had no intention of raping an unwilling participant. his intention was to fulfill a fantasy he was paid to enact.

    whereas (like in the real case) the crazy Ex would be convicted of felony counts of attempted forcible rape.

    but the orb would see the man as guilty and the ex as not guilty because objectively, the man did rape the wife and the Ex had "nothing" to do with the rape.

    even in a world with a 100% guaranteed way of determining if a rapist is a rapist. it won't and can't account for all the true Horror's people are able to think up and enact on other people~
     
  18. SummerForest

    SummerForest Sadness. Happiness. Togetherness.

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    What is rape and what is not, is an extremely sensitive issue and it depends only and yes, ONLY on the way the victim interprets it. To me, there should NEVER be the point of rape being a separate kind of crime. It only traumatizes and stigmatises the victim and sometimes, the offender, too, who might have acted under the influence of alcohol or drug.
    Imo rape should be treated as an extreme form of invasive physical violence and strict punishments must be provided for it.
    Do you guys know that even the penetrating action with a foreign object (read any material object) tantamounts to rape?
     
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  19. Traveling Chef

    Traveling Chef ⁽ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ╯.+:。Professional Unichef~

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  20. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    Well, you would assume that anyone who has prior records of sexual violence would be documented.

    In those cases, obviously the orb wouldn't be informative.

    There is a similar practice in medicine. If you have a prior history of tuberculosis, then the test is no longer informative in the acute setting and you need to rely on other methods to reach a diagnosis.

    Yup, scary stuff! I see what you mean now!

    There's a lot of really interesting thoughts here. Thank you for sharing!

    Honestly I feel like I'm not very qualified in my capacity to define rape.

    I know that it's easy to fall back onto legal definitions, but frankly somebody has to make those legal definitions, which becomes a circular argument about how to define it once again. For practical reasons, it's very common to resort to quantitative and objective measures, but not all things are so inherently quantitative, which makes things difficult!

    :blobsweat_2::blobsweat_2::blobsweat_2::blobsweat_2:

    Yeah, but I still think your earlier scenario is still relevant!

    Honestly I was kind of angling at the OP from the perspective of machine learning and objective data.

    There are a lot of scenarios where machines are getting better at performing decision-making tasks than humans are.

    If you put a human in front of a security camera or a machine in front of the security camera, these days the machine is better at identifying the terrorist than the humans are. And there are a lot of emerging examples where this is the case in a lot of other situations, such as a healthcare or domestic security. Some of these scenarios are life-or-death scenarios, too.

    The reality is that humans are fallible, and sometimes machines are better through objective measures.

    Additionally, like someone mentioned (I forgot who), humans have implicit biases that influence the way that we see situations. The result is that in the United States, the incarceration rate is heavily biased against American Americans severely disproportionate to their rate of crime. It's not difficult to argue that the human system has inherent flaws.

    Consequently, would you trust a machine (an "Oracle" orb) with your justice system?

    That's sort of the underlying thoughts that are running through my head.
     
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