Discussion Power-level system in novels

Lately, there are a lot of novels with game element in. There are also xianxia novels which pretty much cover half of the NU page.

I've been reading quite a lot of this kind of novels. What I noticed is, not all these novels fight scene are enjoyable. Some of them give the stats of characters clearly that we already know how the character compared to each other. When there is an OP character fighting, sometimes to made it seems like an intense fight authors often nerved the mc or nerved the villain which is really bothers me.

I think having a clear power-level system restrict the author flexibility. And every flaw in power related logic will leave a bad aftertaste. For instance, in one of popular title I've seen an evenly matched fight between someone with stats averaging on 6000s vs 3 people with stats averaging on 2000s which is weird. Why can't that one guy with 6000s stats beat them one by one(which should be easy to do) untill they all dead? (If you aren't convinced with this logic you should imagine it yourself. How could someone with resistance that is a third of yours and strength that is also a third of yours and speed that is also a third of yours win a fight against you? Not to mention that, that someone wouldn't be able to dodge, resist, or out powered you. he is basically an infant compared to you. How could 3 infant resist you?).

With that in mind, I really curious what the majority of you think of this? Do you guys like a clear power-level system?

I personally like it to be vague or at least the power-level is within moderation so there are some flexibility for plot armor to take place while not contradict the power-level that had been revealed.

What are the pros and cons of having a clear power-level system?

 

Stories need clear power lvls to show the readers that it's not bullshit. But even then there are authors that bulldoze through by creating MORE lvls after the existing ones when MC goes to a higher plane.

 

Vague but consistent.
Power is inherently vague and circumstantial... even those with tiered power levels typically add in other externalities to the system. Otherwise it becomes a bit boring.

However, those with vague power levels tend to stray and be inconsistent or illogical with their power levels... when they're consistent, though, the fit into the story most naturally.

 

I agree with you on that one. But with a clear power-level the author need to keep the comparison consistent, otherwise that would leave a bad aftertaste.

However, with a vague power-level, a little bit inconsistency won't hurt as much. For example, if you said some one is twice as strong than you rather than saying someone stats is double that yours, it could mean only his muscle strength twice as yours or only one aspect of him is. That is how much flexibility vague power-level offers.

 

I'm pretty tired of game systems in a real world entirely.

 

Exactly my thought!

 

Jp novels most of times doesn't have a definite level of power(flexible as you describe it) and the story end with MC OP af or turn into a slice of life with sudden nerf or cheat out the MC ass....
Cn novels have a definite level of power.....sadly thinking to make the novels more interesting the MC is begin nerfed at every change of realm and OP in that same realms with a unique tecnique or inheritance....
Kr novels have mostly a balaced power system.....usualy is fixed, but then come out of nothing unique class or powers that break that system....

so to answer you question, it's doesn't matter much how is the power system but how is writen and if it's to your liking......

 

While it is true that a vague power system offers more flexibility but it doesn't make the opposition clear or should I say, the power gaps and levels clear, like when comparing characters (things like that what makes things weird and illogical like a villain who lived and trained for hundred years would be defeated in a chapter by a new comer aka MC, I mean being OP MC is great but it is better to understand how things work and how it makes MC OP rather than just listing his/hers/its abilities and saying something like "no one else can achieve something like that, what a cheat!"
as for 2000 against 6000 then it is not illogical, think of dragonball(fusion, team attack, etc...) it is simple math (2000 * 3 = 6000), the strength of the three would equal the one (if their team work is good, like, two would confuse the enemy and the third would launch a surprise attack that would target a weak spot or sensitive region) and when the enemy gets distracted by that attack the three would join together to beat the enemy, besides in real life just make the infant cry and everyone will come running to see what happened to him/her (see if that great power would help then)

 

I'm agree with you about flexibility. Some great quality fantasy stuff always started as vague (EER, BEM, Solo Leveling or Mushoku Tensei) and tend to be stated as consistent later. Altho i didnt really mind tbh about this as long they does well when it comes to fighting stuff explanatory.

But with clear level system, if the author does well it could be pretty enjoyable imo, especially when its about leveling stuff itself ie : Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka? .But yeah if it doesnt it would be messed up (a lot JP novel does this)

 

Do you know what is funny? That exampe of 6000s stats vs 2000s stats was from Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka . Dont get me wrong tho, I do enjoy reading how kumoko grinding and leveling, but that particular things sometimes bothers me.

 

Three times the strength is not large enough of difference to make up against three opponents that has just a third of your strength because if they work as a team than it would be possible to beat someone much stronger. Plus focusing on one enemy will leave you open to the other two. So yeah, you would need to be far stronger to overcome the difference of teamwork, at least an entire tier above, which means you must be able to one or two shot one of them before their team can help.

 

If the explicit limitations and consequences of a power are never explained, then there can be no consistency. Without clear rules that all powers conform to, all characters can be both infinitely powerful and infinitely weak. This cheapens the efforts of characters, denies character development, and deus ex machina becomes prevalent. When there are no limitations, nothing has value and everything is meaningless.

 

Nah i didnt really notice it and it was really long time ago im reading that (still one of my best novel in my list tho). There's always a lot factor deciding in battle not only stats as how poison always could kill bs level enemy or lure enemies into trap to kill them. I would say, if all battle always decided by stats it would pretty stupid imo since thats not how stuff goes like.

So yeah i do think kumoko novel has clear level system but still having flexibilty in battle (as i recall how she dealing with monkey stuff in grinding arc).

 

The problem is not about clear or vage but the step before.

If it is a Game we have numbers (well there are some esoteric ones without but I will ignore em) and then the numbers mean everything. Someone with 1000 average stats is so going to outperform someone with 900 that is not even a joking matter any more. So in this case if we have some unclear thing where two 500 stat people kill one 1000 stat person I call bullshit. (if the 1000 person is not afk)

If it is a world with game setting aka status window with clear numbers it is mostly much less strict. (if there is no defense stat at least) since a weak person can always kill a very strong person with a bit of luck and if he catches the other one unprepared or if he has super high leveled skills to the point it bridges the gap. If we have a defense stat well as long as your attack number is not bigger than the defense one fat chance.

Chinese cultivation ones mostly always have stages with smaller sub stages. With mostly the same rules as in sub stages can somehow battle the same level or +-1 on average. If you have some other factors involved it gets bigger as in +-n etc until it reaches a big stage. To bridge those gaps is harder but with better stuff still doable. Factors to influence all that can be bloodline, higher leveled skills, better items, insights into whatever laws systems, a better cultivation technique, a better pet, consumables, potions, extra cultivation system someone practices (we mostly have the soul, qi, body trinity here where the more of em you do at the same time it increases difficulty but also your power) or anything I did not mention but you can think of. You can repeat that as long as you want in the confines the author set up. If the author decides that there is an item a person on the strongest level created that can kill mostly everything and everyone is able to safely use it some farmer grandpa can kill gods if he wants to if he uses it.

It all comes down to the specific genre the author aims at if the system has top be clear or not in my opinion.

 

Power levels are very important for me. They are basically the 'rules' the novel is operating under. Whenever I read a novel without clear power levels, literally every conflict feels like an ass-pull. Simply something 'made up, because the author wanted to'.

For me, a novel needs to be a world that is working. The author can play god, but even a god needs to follow his own (category: impossible to break) rules that he created. Magic and Qi makes many things more flexible, but a good magic, qi or level system needs to abide by rules.

To be honest, while I like xianxia, wuxia and gameLit novels, at some point I stopped enjoying (most) fighting scenes. Simply because they almost never make sense. The rules get re-written arc by arc... Often the MC gets to abuse his super-op-heaven-defying/exploiting ability just once per arc, just to have it be 'slightly better than average' in future encounters... And whatever awesome foundation/op ability the MC has in the current realm, will somehow be 'almost worthless' one realm later... even though he was somehow strong enough with his cheat to 'almost' cross realms....

I actually want most fights to be over quickly. Fights are a tool to 'get things done', not a game between kids and senile old men with the mentality of a kid.

 

I think it varies with the novels focus. If the level system is decoration, then vague is fine. But if its a core mechanic of the story, like lets say MMORPG troupe novels then a clear/concise breakdown is nice.

The in between I feel is for the authors with a good imagination and creativity. In the sense where they have the core mechanics of the level system and a way to bend it without breaking the logic. SAO produces that game mechanic, in the scene where Kirito takes up a request to imprison a female adventurer, who employs player killers. Kirito's health bar regenerates faster than the combined attack of the group of player killers trying to kill him.

Another example is A Wild Last Boss, where Lufasu is a max level character, but she incorporates a technique which all max level players use to get an edge on each other, "Doping" or buffing themselves with various things in a PvP battle.

I think the crutch with these story elements, is the exposition. There's to much in your face detail or info, it detracts from the actual use in the story. Like why display AGI, STR, END, STA, LUK if they don't really have any lasting impact (hence story decor).

Personally, I'm fine with the in-between.

 

I generally despise stories that tries to depict powerlevels using numbers, personally I feel it is something that should be kept as vague as possible except for what is actually demonstrated within the story itself.
I don't need the story to tell me a character have 1000 strength if the story can just show the character breaking a boulder with his bare hands or something like that.
The main exception is if it is a story about actually playing a game, but even then it is more important for the stats to make sense rather than showing them off.

 

Plenty of cons, too much for these amateur authors to make a good game element novel out of. I'm still pissed about Doulou Dalu which is supposed to be a normal fantasy but for some reason has cooldowns and power percentages, even though there is no system or stats, totally ruining the immersion. Other novels like those shitty CN ones with gaming studios full of girls, whores, double D breasts and ferraris that follow the MC have anyone mid battle dmg reports. Who the fuck cares to read about each attacks damage, crit, combo... Those arbitrary numbers mean nothing to us.

 

It really depends on the system used. I've seen the situation you describe in JRPGs, where defense stat is directly subtracted from attack stat. Like, peasants bang on a knight's armor but can't hurt him unless they bring a big hammer or something.
But in a MMORPG I'm playing now, maxed out defense stat just means you get 50% less hurt from all attacks.
In a classic DnD system, high defense stat just means opponents have lower chance to damage you, but any attack that actually hits hurts just as much. (some supernatural creatures have a different kind of defense that does subtract damage if they're not hit with the right kind of attack, though)

 

What I dislike is when the author gives a whole lot of numbers and stats, without explaining what they mean.
Is a strength 20 person twice as strong as strength 10 person, 4 times as strong, or n^10 times as strong? (my favorite tRPG system uses "4 times as strong", but some people think it's not good enough, and use "n^10 times as strong" optional rule)
Is "swords 4" skill and 10 agility about as good as 14 agility? Or does it mean the skilled person is a great swordsman beyond anything you can reasonably get with pure stats?
Is luck stat of 94 good or bad?
Why does our stupidly brave protagonist have intellect of 200? Why doesn't that giant dragon with intellect of 2000 and wisdom of 3000 solve all the world's problems?
Why does the "accuracy" stat increases endlessly? At some point, you should be able to hit anything already, right?

I prefer it when battles aren't just contests of numbers. If the author can make a fight interesting and dynamic, with dodging deadly attacks, cunning plans and so on - it's the best. For that, I think power levels should not feature too much, and if the author feels the need to give stats and numbers - he/she should take care to make them all remain in the same realm.