Discussion Sexual Harassment

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Wodust, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. replay

    replay ★Milk and Honey smelling Merchant★

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    well menopause for women comes realllllly early nowadays. . . ..
     
  2. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Abused Witch

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    Yes indeed. The case of sexual harassment has been greatly overblown these days. When Ai-chan touched Ai-chan's hot and sexy former student-turned-assistant, she called it sexual harassment and said Ai-chan was such a naughty teacher to put Ai-chan's hand on Ai-chan's own student.

    But this is completely untrue! Ai-chan wouldn't have touched her if she didn't whisper, "I'm not wearing a bra today." into Ai-chan's ears, before saying, "Wanna check if it's true?" while licking her lips. That's incitement, right? She specifically asked Ai-chan to check it. How could she claim it was sexual harassment?

    Ai-chan is innocent!
     
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  3. PotatoZero

    PotatoZero Well-known Potato

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    Oh, so victims are always blameless then.. that's nice to know
     
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  4. Vemmy

    Vemmy Well-Known Member

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    It’s a risk that comes with the choice. I’m not saying it’s right, but it is human nature and is difficult to change. Walking out while scantly dressed or even just dressed attractively will attract attention, both the good and the bad. Sexual harassment is bad and it is wrong, but that’s a risk you knowingly take. It’s like how you could be walking on the street like a normal law abiding citizen and get hit by a truck; that’s a risk you might be taking every time you step out of the house. Should you expect to get hit by the truck? No. Is it wrong of the driver to hit you? Probably. Can you stop them from hitting you? If you were paying attention, you might be able to avoid it. You could choose to maybe not go outside that day or maybe take a different route, but you can only control your own actions. If you walk out in a bikini or something exposing, you must’ve known what kind of gazes you would get and you must be ready to deal with what comes at you. Learn self defence or something! If someone sexually harasses you, beat them off! You can’t just wait for society to come save you cuz it won’t.

    On the other hand, I feel like a lot of people have become desensitized to sexual harassment simply because of how much some people overreact. It’s a small but extremely vocal minority that gives the majority a bad rep. It is a problem and society should try to change, but maybe the method is wrong. Because people may be able to get publicity or other benefits from these situations, they might be more inclined to jump on every little possibility. There’s also a power aspect, where you could blackmail, possibly ruin someone’s job or even life, so a small minority abuses it.
     
  5. jheno13

    jheno13 Snub

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    The Definition of sexual harassment can change depending on who's view of harassment you will follow.
    Take this scenario. A strong and independent woman is drowning and you as the only lifeguard present have to think about it carefully. The first course of action is to search the vicinity of any of your female coworker or civilian that can swim and perform first aid if no one is available save the drowning woman yourself but get any proof that the drowning woman gave you her consent to save her before jumping on the pool. It should be a solid proof and not something a woman can say she was in the heat of the moment or under the influence. After saving the woman contact any authority that can help you for your defence.
    Woman of today specially the self proclaimed strong and independent one are not snowflakes they are glass cannon.
     
  6. Robbini

    Robbini Logical? Illogical? Random? Or Just Unique?

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    It wasn't only her. His own friends, partners and coworkers believed her over him. Over a few tweets, his entire life was ruined.
    Tweets which have proven to be lies and planned to ruin him.
    It wasn't fully 10 years for Alec, but... considering his coworkers, some of which he singlehandedly helped to fame, entered the bandwagon.
     
  7. Catscatscats

    Catscatscats Member

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    If you want to hold the door then hold the door. When someone gets offended by that kind of thing my go-to response is “I’m sorry you’re offended. I was just trying to be kind.” If she’s still a jerk after that don’t get your panties in a twist. You don’t have to date her.
    As a female I don’t care if a guy holds the door. What I don’t like is a guy feeling entitled to my number just because he held the door. Although I am one of those “man-hating feminists” so who am I to say.
     
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  8. JustPassingBye

    JustPassingBye Member

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    As technology advances human intelligence detoriates.

    -Your Granddaddy
     
  9. Sabruness

    Sabruness Cultured Yuri Connoisseur

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    I've not had that happen to me personally but i have heard of it happening. I dont expect anything from it but maybe a polite thanks (which would be common courtesy) so i dont know why you're being a bit.... defensive. I also said radical feminists as in those nutters who give sane and rational feminists a bad name. That's all i'm going to say because landmine.

    Ignore that Vic Minogna worshipping rant, trust me. The guy is a total scumbag who's just earning well-deserved cosmic karma for a creepy and well-known reputation dating back at least a decade. Totally different to the Alec case.
     
  10. lychee

    lychee [- slightly morbid fruit -] ❀[ 恋爱? ]❀

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    The thing about the OP that gives me a somewhat sour impression is that "Don't you think the topic of harassing women has been slightly exaggerated in the last few years?" gives the impression that it's not an issue. For anyone who has personally experienced or witnessed anything close to sexual harassment, the gut response to hearing this is quite negative because it clashes directly with our own personal experiences.

    I won't jump to any conclusions, but it's kind of like saying: "Don't you think murder has been slightly exaggerated in the last few years? I keep seeing it every day on the news but I've never personally witnessed a murder so lots of murder reports must be fake!" (note: you can replace "murder" with "rape" to a similar effect!)

    And frankly there's a huge problem with this kind of logic -- other than the fact that it completely dismisses the experiences of anyone who has genuinely been through it.

    Since it's quite a politicized topic, it would do everyone a lot of favors if people refrained from gossiping about the hearsay strawman scenarios that perfectly suit their political orientation (e.g. "I heard a story on reddit where a woman got her boss fired by saying he touched her boobs but actually she made everything up so that woman is basically a bitch"), and instead focused on sharing their own experiences that they've personally been through. And if you haven't experienced anything, be explicit about saying that you've never seen it, rather than propagating an Internet story that's a perfect example of your political beliefs.

    Alternatively, objective data is a nice place to start too. Anybody can google "Sexual Harassment Statistics" and come up with lots of charts. It's up to you to believe whether the surveys or research data are true, but it's your own responsibility to ascertain the reliability of sources.

    The highest numbers I found were these:

    [​IMG]

    And the lowest numbers I found were these:

    [​IMG]

    Believe what you will, but I wanted to focus on this chart and tell my own story:

    [​IMG]

    + + +​

    From the above chart, it might seem kind of surprising that the US medical field has high reported rates of sexual harassment, at least compared to other academic fields.

    Incidentally, I'm a medical student in the US, so I can speak a little bit about this number that most people would probably overlook unless they're personally involved in healthcare. Historically, medicine was a highly gendered occupation in the United States, and the majority of older doctors are overwhelmingly men. Medicine is also highly hierarchal and fairly traditional (in the sense that if your mentor tells you to hold a suture needle this way, then you hold it that way and not any other way -- even though practically speaking a lot of different methods are probably valid).

    In the last twenty years or so, there has been a large rise in the number of female medical students, but a lot of people in positions of power generally tend to be old white men -- and many of them have older and "dated" ways of doing things -- including with interpersonal relationships.

    Realistically, the workplace norms from thirty years ago are different from what they are now. Back in the 60's or 70's, it was considered appropriate for a man to to comment or joke about the voluminous nature of a female co-worker's ass or various other forms of vaguely sexual verbal exchanges that are absolutely off limits today.

    However, when you're in a workplace setting where all the powerful people are old men from this era, you can still see kind of witness some of these older things -- even though now workplace norms have shifted such that unsolicited flirting is considered unprofessional.

    + + +​

    For my surgery rotation, the attending (head doctor) was a famous surgeon who's known throughout all the surrounding states for performing a rare procedure that nobody else does. He probably rakes in millions of dollars for the hospital every year and essentially he's a big shot. Literally everyone kisses up to him and does whatever he wants.

    If he wants a muffin, you better get him a muffin -- that kind of thing.

    (I'm not joking about the muffin thing... it actually happened >.<)

    Normally this wouldn't be so bad if he had a good personality, but... well... he was definitely a bit of a bad apple. He had all sorts of rumors around him, you see? I mean, in the beginning I didn't really know the details except for the fact that a lot of my classmates "didn't like him."

    But after I started the rotation......

    Uhh... I don't really know how to put it other than the fact that he hits on his female medical students.

    And mind you, he's like age sixty and really old.

    There was this one time when the entire medical team was in the room with a patient, and somehow the conversation turns to how he's having a barbecue party at his house and he wraps his arm around on one of my female classmate's shoulders (who is quite attractive) and says to her: "Hey! You should come over too! We have a swimming pool!"

    It was legitimately like the creepiest thing I've everrrrr watched.

    Mind you, by the end of the day, he manages to invite all of the female medical students to his barbecue pool party (;-;). However, none of the male medical school classmates on the team got invited. It was super creepy and here we all are like melting and trying to figure out how to refuse to somebody you're not allowed to say no to.

    My friend was seriously the best though -- like she literally flat out said "No" to his face and he like gave her a glare.

    She was like depressed for several weeks after that because she was convinced that now he hated her and would give her a terrible grade for the rotation. After that episode the surgeon didn't really interact with her, if you know what I mean, and she would often complain to me about him and feeling like she's always walking on eggshells.

    Incidentally speaking, some of my classmates did end up going to his barbecue party. @.@

    I mean if there's a chance to get a leg up on the person who's grading you, there's bound to be people who will take advantage of it, you know what I mean? Even if it's disgusting.

    Why has nobody reported anything up until now? I mean, he's basically untouchable. There is a big fat zero percent change he'll ever get fired, because he's famous and a cash cow for the hospital. I'm like 90% positive that everybody who works in the department (including the hospital administration) knows about his habits, but everybody turns a blind eye because it's not like he's a rapist(?). He's an irreplaceable surgeon that you can't find for hundreds of miles around, and it's not a big deal (*sarcasm*?) if his only issue is that he invites female medical students to his house to ogle them while they swim in his private pool............ right?

    I mean, if a female celebrity came out and #metoo'd him he'd probably get fired because the publicity would be bad for the hospital.

    But if you're anybody else (let alone a lowly medical student), the media would probably just laugh it off as "overblown" because who cares if a famous surgeon put his arm around a female medical student? I mean, obviouslyyyy he's just being a friendly boss and all of us are just "too sensitive" at a harmless "casual gesture". It's not like we have evidence of him raping somebody.

    All of that aside, any of us who were there to see it knows exactly what we saw.

    And pretty much privately across the entirety of our class, that surgeon has a horrible reputation.

    However, I would be surprised if anything ever came out of it because legally speaking I guess he's "innocent until proven guilty".

    + + +​

    I told this story because this particular experience is on my mind whenever I see people talking about the #metoo movement.

    Honestly, for me, the #metoo movement is all about asymmetric power.

    There are a lot of industries (e.g. Hollywood, entertainment), where the boss (often male) holds an enormous amount of power over female employees. Some of that power is career deciding. If the boss likes you, then you advance -- if you piss him off, then you're screwed for all of your career dreams.

    I don't doubt this to the slightest degree.

    Before recently, many of these disgusting powerful people have been untouchable.

    They're so famous that there's no way they'll ever be punished for doing bad things, and a lot of people are complicit in allowing it happen because entire industries are built around these celebrity individuals. Similarly speaking, some of these men are emboldened by how invincible they are, and it's also why you see crazy stories like Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring hit the news.

    I think it's a good thing that there is a mechanism to make powerful men think twice before taking advantage of the disproportionate power they wield. In an ideal world, the legal system would be able to protect us from these kinds of crazy situations, but realistically there are a lot of things that prevent the legal system from actually intervening.

    For that matter, it's not illegal for a surgeon to invite female medical students over to swim in his pool.

    You can't really go to the police about a surgeon who is sleeping with medical students for an A+ on their grades.

    Rather -- everything in this realm is institutional policies -- a vague set of rules in a "handbook" about things that are permitted or not permitted. This is precisely why it is so controversial, because there is so much ambiguity in the interpretation. The outcome of an internal institutional review can range from anything from a slap on the wrist to being quietly fired with a nice big compensation package. Usually, it's not in the institution's favor to make a lot of noise when stuff like this happens. More often than not, it's kept under wraps.

    All I can say is offer my personal opinion: that this is incredibly unprofessional and just disgusting.

    Before I end this post, one last jab at internal institutional review boards:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

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    So what? You aren't their butler. You don't have to abide by their expectations. If you want to be snarky, tell them "Yes, chivalry died alongside acting like a proper lady"

    I clearly was not talking about acting like a hikimori... Just treating people with respect is all it takes.

    You are over-complicating a simple issue. If there have been no special requests by the person in advance, you follow standard procedure. If you need to perform first aid, the only thing you need to look for is some sort of sign that says their preferences (often those people who are picky about this have a tattoo or some other clear sign indicating their preference), if you see none, follow standard procedure.
     
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  12. Sabruness

    Sabruness Cultured Yuri Connoisseur

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    :blob_pompom::blob_coffee: That's a good one. I'm going to save that in case i ever need it :blob_grin:
     
  13. SummerForest

    SummerForest Sadness. Happiness. Togetherness.

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    The first and foremost thing is that the legal definition of sexual harassment encompasses any gender and currently the goal is to include the transgenders as well.
    This is a general chat, not a place worthy of serious discussion, but I'd like to point out that in reality, it is very difficult to prove cases of sexual harassment and the stigma associated with it often restrains the victim from seeking justice as well.
    A lot of my friends who commented here have mixed up the term sexual harassment with what we generally call eve-teasing which is never taken as a serious offence anyway.
    The term sexual harassment is primarily associated with the treatment of women in workplace and professional field and the legal definition of it will encompass even men who have been harassed in those context.
    It's a pity that society in general thinks that men cannot be sexually harassed by women. It makes me laugh thinking that it's the same crudely male chauvinist idea that a woman's advances should be something enjoyable to men and not harassing. I can only see here the grave dug by male chauvinist societies where women are the second grade weaker race who only need to be protected by virtuous men and who can never really harm a man, the superior race. A woman can and sometimes does harm a man's reputation for her own malicious designs. It is only by spreading true gender equality that we can address this issue.
    This is my own opinion, anyway.
     
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  14. ANonMouse

    ANonMouse Member

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    I don't quite buy it, but I can understand why he's got bad optics. He's unprofessional when it comes to keeping a certain distance from fans (underage or otherwise). I'm not saying that he's definitely innocent, but I'm also not saying he's necessarily guilty. I do follow someone who used to work in the media who personally came across him multiple times being a bit too friendly to his fans off-stage (her perspective). I attribute this more to young celebrities who had great success from an early age not having properly learned how to interact with fans. All they know and feel is adulation and the fans' desires, regardless of how those desires might not be appropriate or healthy due to power dynamics of the relationship (of a celebrity and fan).

    Reminds me of the whole ProJared thing honestly. He also got accused of pedophilia, alongside allegedly cheating on his ex-wife. While he might have cleared most of the suspicion of pedophilia (he showed screencaps of him explicitly asking age before accepting nude from said "kid"), it doesn't change the fact that exchanging nudes with fans, adult or otherwise, has a power imbalance by nature because they are FANS. Because he achieved internet celebrity success so early in his life, I feel as though he never actually learned the dos and do-nots for celebrities.

    I do find it interesting that there are not only people who don't understand why these are taboos, but also people who dismiss these types of taboos as something of note to begin with. I do remember watching a few South Park episodes where the principal and vice principal were desperately trying to hide their inappropriate relationship with each other. It was definitely being painted as a non-problem problem. Although these types of relationships don't necessarily devolve into problems, imo at least being knowledgeable about the taboo and why it is one can help educate people so when they are in this type of relationship, they have the ability to evaluate it properly if it starts to fail because of the power imbalance based nature of it. Whether it's coworkers, professor/student, celebrity/fan, too many people seem to dismiss these taboos as silly, esp since the fantasies are quite fun and sometimes it works out.
     
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  15. PaladinWolf

    PaladinWolf Active Member

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    I'm not a vic worshipper if those people who accused him had went to the police first or not waited so long and provided actual evidence against him instead of simply attacking him on Twitter i might be inclined to believe them but even if they had what's the worst accusation against him he invited a girl who had flirted with him to his room and kissed her and when she said no he dropped it? Or the so called hair pulling? I've had female friends do the same to me when I had long hair and was fine with it or is it the well know flirty twins who at the time were over 18 and when they said no he said ok goodnight who by the way lived with the primary accusers fiance and worked at the same company as him who he himself actually has a court recorded history of abuse all this shit and the worst thing he has been proven to be is too huggie nothing more
     
  16. Diametric

    Diametric Waifu Connoisseur

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    I didn't mean to say that you were. I meant that everybody has a different idea of what "keep to yourself" and "treat others with respect" entails, since it's so ambiguous.

    On one end of the scale, interactions with people of the opposite sex become extremely restricted and everyone is constantly walking on eggshells. On the other end, people are getting sexually harassed left, right, and centre.

    Somewhere in between exists the ideal, but everyone has a different idea of what the ideal is, and ambiguous wording like "people should learn what it means to keep to themselves" and "just treating people with respect is all it takes"
    really doesn't mean anything when when everyone has a different idea of what those phrases mean.
     
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  17. kenar

    kenar ヽ(`・ω・´)ゝ

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    obviously, cops won't buy that! Also pics or it didn't happen, just kidding. :blobsmirk:
     
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  18. Chrono Vlad

    Chrono Vlad 『*Pouts*』

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    Sexual harassment, assault or anything related to such dehumanizing acts are awful but let us not lie to our ourselves that there are some women out there that will lie/accuse an innocent man as a way to take revenge, ruin lifes etc. for their own agenda.

    What's even worse if that woman take it to the Court of Twitter that man will pretty much lose everything even though that accused has not proven guilty in the Court of Law.

    EDIT:
    Not only it destroys the life of innocent men it also effects the true victims of sexual abuses it would be harder for them to ask for help.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  19. placeholder45

    placeholder45 Active Member

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    Part of the fun is that hate groups are organined online now, with groups and command-and-control channels farming out directions to trolls on twitter, so if you're a female journalist or politician, you'll get vast amounts of abuse if you're the kind of person they go after.

    They cultivate a sense of victimhood, so while they're harassing women, they also magnify and repeat lists of rare episodes where women falsely wronged men.
    And they do this in order to abuse women.

    >Definition of DARVO

    > DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility and blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

    > Institutional DARVO occurs when the DARVO is committed by an institution (or with institutional complicity) as when police charge rape victims with lying. Institutional DARVO is a pernicious form of institutional betrayal.

    https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html

    > . I’m not saying it’s right, but it is human nature and is difficult to change. Walking out while scantly dressed or even just dressed attractively will attract attention, both the good and the bad. Sexual harassment is bad and it is wrong, but that’s a risk you knowingly take. It’s like how you could be walking on the street like a normal law abiding citizen and get hit by a truck; that’s a risk you might be taking every time you step out of the house.

    So if a woman wears a low-cut top or just has a big bust, it's like she's asking for it when a truck hits her, or rather when some creep says something nasty to her or sexually assaults her.

    Right. Got it.

    And you're completely comfortable with normalizing this.
     
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  20. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

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    Some points to give to those SJW feminists that are advocates against "rape culture".
    -Say Person A (woman) is cold. Person B (guy) has to strip her down to her bra and panties then cuddle with her for body heat. Now, whether or not that is sexual assault is debatable. If she was unconscious when he does this, that is where it comes close to sexual assault or rape. However, if he kept his underwear on and didn't probe him, he would have to prove that.

    -In the harem manga "To Love-Ru Darkness", Rito (our hero) is so clumsy that he often accidentally strips girls naked (one chapter he accidentally landed a vacuum head in a a girl's underwear region). Sometimes he might fall naked onto a naked girl to the point he might have accidentally popped that girl's cherry. Would that feminist consider it sexual harassment or rape/sexual assault? While such an accident is very rare in real life, proving it was an accident is a challenge.