Should a King be Monogamous or Polygamous?

Discussion in 'Author Discussions' started by AIm21, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Blunt*Comedian

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    A king cannot be monogamous. It will never work that is why monarchy in it's self is a failure of a concept. As Christians we are taught how flawed and self defeating the system is.
    You need polygamy to build alliances but that will cause succession issues especially with foreign Empresses.
    Monogamy will cause issues in case of a barren Empress.
    You lose either way
    It's a waste of time
     
  2. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    A couple things:
    Monogamy and polygamy in a developed and stabilized society are pretty much wholly dependent upon culture/religion. European nations that were Christian did not have polygamy since the culture of the country made it essentially impossible to do so successfully. Similarly, the state of marriage in your nation should also be dependent upon tradition.

    But the Byzantines, by the time they were conquered, were basically entirely dependent upon outside armies from the West, in particular Italian states, for their protection. They had become so weakened by internal discord that they were essentially powerless and simply a buffer state between Europe and the Ottomans. Using them as an example of states that fell entirely due to outside forces is rather prevaricating.

    Further, I still don't understand how your policies encourage the dealing of conflicts in a way that is public. It seems far more likely to me that your policies would result in basically the royal family being dominated by outside Noble house that controls the royal name. Regardless of the success of the rules, though, there is another major issue with your rules.

    The main issue is that I honestly have no idea how these rules governing the royal family were developed. Without binding historical tradition that gives valid reason for their arrangement to exist, the king has no reason to follow these rules. What does he care? He is king and has absolute power. I just don't see a king following your rules without a serious incentive to do so, which you have not provided.
     
  3. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    There are no more powerful Nobles in the Kingdom as the King control both Armies and Greatest Source of Magical Power. Plus with the King making all other Noble successor as his loyal men and daughters as his wife, consort or concubine. The Noble are unable to form independent factions from crown. So there will never be a Noble stupid enough to see how much the odds are stack against even if the heir they want didn't get to the throne. Instead they will try to adopt a lost rival sibling of King in case he dies, but doesn't have any heir old enough to rule and so one of his siblings will then assumes the throne allowing the noble that chose to adopt the rival sibling to have a greater chance of receiving either higher station or more power.
     
  4. Kutaifa

    Kutaifa Pokémon trainer

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    That seems to leave little to the imagination, all power rests in the king and all nobles are for some dumb reason unable to gain much power are his servants, that seems boring to be quite honest.

    The king seems to me nothing for than a tyrant that takes and weds the daughters of all noble families due to reasons.

    If he posess absolute power as you say then why does he need to posses the daughters of the nobility? It doesn't make sense.

    Realistically this would remove anything interesting politically from the aristocracy and instead simplify it to the bootlicking of the arustorctacy over the children of the king.

    The nobility are then no different from the peasants, they have no power nor do they posses in your story the will to take the throne. They are just rich peasants that can vote. Nothing more. Oh and has their daughters kidnapped every few decades.

    Removing the nobility entirely probably wouldn't change much from my understanding of the story so far.
     
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  5. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    They didn't particularly have any religious traditions as religions power has been on a constant rise and decline after the devastating blow cause to them during my MC past life.

    So the royal family when first establish simply choose the most common way of passing on power in this world that was simply male primogeniture, but the firstborn must have magic otherwise it would go onto the next child born with magic first, from a legal wife or consort. But not a concubine or a mistress.

    As the Royal family had to balance between maintaining a distance with the old and new Nobility that is in constant conflict due to a past history, but make it so that neither side would turn their ire to the royal family as despite royal family controlling the army at this time they were filled with nobilities that hold influential position and may try to cause a rebellion in the army that would weaken the kingdom military to defend.

    However, after the Advent of the super magical weapon known as, The Throne of Damocles, the Royal family finally had the leeway of weaking the nobility without compromising national security. After devasting the nobility power until they are merely defang cats the Royal family made the laws of the noble tribute of loyalty to the crown and at the same time implemented these rules of succession to prevent shadowy in fighting from occurring by making all fighting on the surface in formal events.

    The King was only able to do is because with the power of the Throne of Damocles he had nearly nigh omniscient on everyone within the Kingdom making both Nobility and his own family from being unable to carrying out shadowy attacks on him or each other. If they were caught then it would give him a reason to either disinherit them or execute them if the plan crime was particularly bad.

    So the whole pillar that keeps the Kingdom together is the Throne of Damocles and the one who best draw out its power are those that are the strongest or best fit to rule, but only for heir with magic though.

    Also if a suitable heir can be found within the concubine then all he need to divorce all his wives or consort leaving only that one prince to be King by default and avoid activating the rest of the succession rule beside the 6th and 7th.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  6. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    Oh so now it seem stable doesn't it?

    The Nobility aren't dumb and neither are they rich peasants as they are the elites of society.

    They just know the King is currently too powerful for them to content after being strip of most of their military might.

    However, while they can't fight back individual, but neither can the King use his absolute power to kill all of them.

    As he still need them to run the country and it is easier to use a family establish with an educational background then raise actual peasant to replace the nobility administrative position in the whole Kingdom. As he can't protect the Kingdom and run it at the same by himself.

    Also 40% of the Nobility have something exceptionally vital to the King, that is they are born with magic, and there offspring combine with his will make sure he will have strong magically gifted children. As a mage and non mage breeding will only give half of the magical ability of their magical parent or nothing at all.

    Once the Royal family lost there magical power and the ability to use there greatest weapon the Throne of Damocles they will be dead meat if either most or another state come invading.

    So that is why the King made the noble sent him their daughter and sons to both continue his magic line and also make sure his next administrators are loyal so he does not have to kill them and raise a new noble from the commons to replace them.

    If the Nobility dies so does the Royal family after a couple of generations of mating with non magical individuals or chose the dangerous option of inbreeding.

    So the Nobility and Royalty are inseparable even if the power dynamic heavily favor one side.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  7. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    It's not whether a king should be monogamous or polygamous, it's which one is more advantageous in the political climate.

    If your king is living in a time of political bickering and the royalty's influence is low, marrying multiple daughters of nobles will ensure their subservience for as long as the king lives, assuming it's not done by force. As long as the king doesn't take noble's daughters by force or decree that all noble families must give them their daughters, this would most often calm the nobles down, at least during the king's time.

    The problem with the rule of succession will not occur if there is a rock-solid provision on who can inherit the throne. In some kingdoms, only men can inherit the throne, therefore, there will not be disputes from princesses because they can't inherit by law.

    In some kingdoms, women can inherit if there is no more heir. This means that as long as there is a male heir, the princesses will not be eligible for inheritance. Of course, they can just assassinate the heir.

    In some kingdoms, only the child from the queen can inherit. In which case, there will be a mad dash to become the queen, but the children will be pretty much safe and secure since killing the children can't guarantee the throne. Blackmailing the queen through their children wouldn't work either. After all, it's not up to the queen who becomes the queen, it's the king's decision.

    In some kingdoms, male and female inherit equally, in some cases, the oldest inherit. This is a very loose and lazy inheritance provision that ensures civil strife in the kingdom if the heir is someone without much talent or support. To keep the king's influence after the previous king died, there must be a very strong loyalty towards this heir-turned-king. It can be achieved through national pride, national identity or personal charisma, but this kind of inheritance provision is weak and prone to conflict.

    In some kingdoms, male and female can inherit as long as they're proposed and voted by a council of people. This was what the caliphate shura system and Holy Roman Empire did. In the shura system, the new king, or caliph, was chosen by a group of anonymous wise men. However, this system has a problem, as nobody knows each other and therefore, if the king and his assistant who knows the identity of the men dies, anyone can just go in and become an elector. Caliphs after Ali hated this system and abolished it because it was a hit or miss.

    In the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire), the emperor was voted by noblemen. These people were the archbishops (who mostly didn't know anything about The Bible or Christianity apart from what benefitted them), the princes (not necessarily royal princes, they were from completely different families), the dukes, the counts and the barons, though the titles are generally just titles, there were no real hierarchy. A count could have much larger land than a prince and an archbishop could be wealthier than the emperor himself. This system failed because there was too much room for favours. You see, since the emperor could only be crowned if these electors cast their votes in his favour, they start charging the heir stuff to get their votes. It was common for the heir to give the emperor's lands to the electors so that they would support his rise to power. As many generations of emperors did this, the emperor's land shrink considerably until they became poorer than their own subjects and dependent on gifts by the nobles.
     
  8. Kutaifa

    Kutaifa Pokémon trainer

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    No it still isn't stable.
    What makes you think that the bureaucracy which now is also the aristocracy wouldn't simply use their hold on the nation to remove the monarch.

    Look at it like this.

    The king is a monarch that THEY have chosen, and from their help to him, how does he grant them favors?

    By kidnapping their daughters and trying to impregnate them to gain stronger princes that will only improve his line. And if he does take them does that then not mean your question around polygami becomes redundant?

    They have control over the administration of the nation, they control the standing army through the money, institutions and development, they make the country continue to exist and how are they treated? As nothing more than cattle.
    It wouldn't make them loyal, it would to the exact opposite.

    What do the nobility gain from keeping the status quo intact?
     
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  9. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    To not get eaten by the monster to the west of course... Did you forget where my setting is? The Kingdom is located on a continent 95% control by powerful monsters that one can't even imagine as they explored deeper into the heart of the continent.

    As the King control all Military Affairs and also all administrative affair related to the army and only he can appoint his generals he basically hold the lives of everyone in the Kingdom hostage with only him keeping the monsters from turning them into food.

    So they have their lives to keep and a stable life by just having to send one daughter and there son to be loyal to the King. Which for the nobility should be the easiest and most acceptable lost if calculated with there lives on the line.
     
  10. Kutaifa

    Kutaifa Pokémon trainer

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    I see where you are going with it, but still regret that you chosen to do it like that, and it doesn't look like I can convince you to think otherwise.

    But you do you friend, even though I disagree with majority of what you said that doesn't mean it's all bad, it just isn't something that caters to me I guess.
    Good luck though
     
  11. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    Huh, with a weapon that's extremely broken like that, I could see how the kingdom could subsist. Though I can't really see how such a weapon would work either. How would you be able to process all of the information when it gives "nigh-on omniscience"? The only way that would work would be if it also gave the user supreme computational power, but at that point, the question becomes, with such a broken weapon, how the hell have they not taken over the world? Your weapon seems too powerful, such that it being a simple country without even ruling the entirety of a continent seems ludicrous.
     
  12. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    The weapon cannot be taken out of the Kingdom and its range only cover most of the Kingdom. As its power source or Nexus is stuck beneath the palace of the Kings due to this weapon being incomplete in its creation as the royal family or the sage that help them make it did not have the full blue print and trust me these weapons are not new in my world. Instead they are a reinvention of an ancient weapon lost in my world history during the Dark Age due to my MC slaughtering all the most important individuals at that time who had these weapon and after the rulers died with these weapons that once protected the land the monster ravage all the unprotected Kingdom and empire making it so the blue print to create these weapon was lost during that 500 year dark age.

    The weapon give the user nigh omniscient by connecting to each sentient individuals senses within the boundary of the Kingdom and storing a copy of what they experience inside the Nexus then when the King want to know something the Nexus will than transfer the revelant information to the Throne of Damocles that show it to the King.
     
  13. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    Ok that makes things better. But honestly, I don't see why nobles wouldn't send their children away from the country (besides those that are forced to stay in the capital) in order to get around the restrictions. Since things that are planned outside of the kingdom obviously can't be known. The only way to prevent this is to be totalitarian as well as isolationist, both of which would create stagnation in the kingdom. So yeah I could see it existing, but not as a country with any real power or potential for growth.
     
  14. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    They live on a continent that is suppose to represent the America's in my world separate an ocean away from other continents and the only way out is to travel through an ocean that is terrifying to navigate without an expert navigator that learn specifically the path to get to the other continents and even once they leave, most of the noble will lose their status as Nobility in the Western continent of my world that represent Europe don't believe in the idea of a non-magical individual can be a Noble as that has been the norm for millenia and the noble on that continent had to deal with constant civil unrest due to them being such shitty Nobles for so long just because they had powerful magic. So allowing a Noble to stay noble despite not having magic is a dangerous idea. While those Noble who do have magic is kept on the continent by coerion and granted special treatment(for example they started a civil war and lost, but king kept them around relatively intact anyway) from the King as he needs them to not have to resort to inbreeding to create a magical heir. So while the Royal family does not want to be threatened by there Nobles they also don't want them to immediately leave due to oppression.
     
  15. Femme Fatale

    Femme Fatale | Sublime Goddess Of Chance |

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    Or he can just sleep around...he's the king after all. XD
     
  16. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    Yeah, but you've already mentioned that there are three other smaller weaker nations ripe for the picking on the same continent, which aren't wholly dominated by the kingdom. It would seem obvious for these nobles to marry out to these other kingdoms and build up power bases outside of the kingdom (though not too far away). Further I wouldn't even be surprised if these families essentially have the weaker branch stay in the kingdom and the stronger main one be outside of it where they'll have more freedom (and still the same if not more power).
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  17. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    True, but those three other state are only commonwealth Kingdom to a stronger mother country that is too far away to protect them if the Strongest Kingdom on the continent decided to attack and so what is likely to happen is an Noble running away to these Kingdom aren't out of the Kings grasp and can be taken back with the reason of them being traitors to the state for fleeing into another Kingdom and the other Kingdom would just hand them over to not antagonize there stronger neighbors than executed those that flee as a show of force to deter other noble from fleeing to a place so close to Kingdom that would not do any good. But you make a very good point and could be one of the source of strife that will one day harm the Kingdom as well allow me to place the MC reincarnated birth location outside the range of the Kings Throne of Damocles...
     
  18. Arcturus

    Arcturus Cat, Hidden Sith Lord

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    If the kingdom doesn't enforce a totalitarian isolationism, then he has to allow for relationships across borders. So the king's power has to be weakened there. For example, consider a family that trains each member in how to use a magic cipher to encode secret messages using only their minds with all of this training being done outside of the Kingdom. The king can have the ciphered message, but since he never has the key, he can't force them to give it up. And executing a noble family just for using ciphers is definitely drifting into the whole "tyrannical oppressive dictator that stifles growth" realm.

    Internationally, I would think that these fellow kingdoms would encourage isolating the royal family and focus on relationships with the other nobility because they want to weaken their power. Consider, the king can invade these other countries, but he cannot conquer them without losing his omniscience and exposing himself to even greater risk. So it is in the king's best interests actually, not to fo to war. Since he would lose major resources with little gain in doing so. And while these nations won't be protected in the short term, since they do have other countries providing some resources, they would be able to regain their strength, even if it's costly. Neither side wants to fight, but I don't think the king can just force these other nations to give up a refugee (aka a fleeing noble) without some significant evidence of serious criminal behavior on that noble's part beyond merely leaving the kingdom.
     
  19. AIm21

    AIm21 Well-Known Member

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    True, but what if the King accused them of stealing state secret? How would the other kingdom object as they don't know if the King is lying or not? As you can't make the king say the state secret and the noble has no way to prove he is innocent unless put under interrogation magic? That is the accusation the King can make toward them if they flee with rest of there family to another state. So unless they can form some strong alliance outside the continent and leave as quickly as possible after going into the neighboring Kingdom, if not and instead they just marry there children to the other kingdom Nobles but main family remain in the Kingdom than nothing would change as the main family will be held at king hostage.

    Plus the Kingdom has made a secret pact with the mother country of these Kingdom due to the strife on the western continent that involves one of its hegemonic powers and there nervous neighbors. So in the agreement of that pact involve the transfer of the Kingdom greatest state secret to the mother country that would help in case of a great war was to occur against hegemonic power. So if a Noble was accuse of stealing state secret by the King and have no way to prove their innocence they are screw with no one helping them on the continent... Unless they can come into contact with a secret operative working for that hegemonic power that is the mortal enemy to the Kingdom. So unless they are really lucky then the chance of escaping the King grasp is pretty grim and many Nobles don't know if they should risk fleeing as it is not like Kingdom is a sinking ship at the moment.
     
  20. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    Yeah, that's what having a mistress means :)