Discussion Slavery

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Royal-Inquisitor, Jul 29, 2019.

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  1. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    That is why Lolita as a book is very misunderstood.
    It is narrated by a pedophile who is obviously an unreliable narrator like most Japanese Protagonists.


    Here is an interesting question : is giving someone an aphrodisiac without their knowledge and having sex with them considered as rape?
     
  2. Kiskaiya

    Kiskaiya 【Let’s pretend】

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    Yes, because they cannot be considered of sound mind and actions, therefore it cannot be said whether they would have acquiesced or not without chemical influence before the instance
     
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  3. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    It is just another excuse used by authors. Rape fetish is a big deal, that is why the most popular TV shows have it from Spartacus to Game of Thrones.
    Pretending rape isn't a popular fetish is pretty naive and even ridiculous. Packaging it nicely and trying to justify it, doesn't make it right
     
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  4. Kiskaiya

    Kiskaiya 【Let’s pretend】

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    This is one of the many fetishes that fall under the banner of "better in theory than in practice". In other words, keep certain kinks to your fantasies and not in the real world.
     
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  5. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    When you keep feeding fantasies,the desires become stronger.
    It is naive to think that humans are not affected by the media we consume.
    There is a reason sexual tourism is a big deal
     
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  6. Kiskaiya

    Kiskaiya 【Let’s pretend】

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    Lack of willpower and discipline leads to acting out fantasies that are better kept fantasies. I can understand people being envious that perhaps some of their fetishes can be socially accepted while others should never be acted on, but there is still a line that shouldn't be crossed.

    I think a big problem with fantasies is that many people are unable to separate "fantasy" vs "real life". There are plenty of fetishes/fantasies that someone may find great in fantasy but find the idea of it in actual practise revolting. Fairly harmless example being people who like reading incest stories but find the idea of actual incest disgusting.
     
  7. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    True but I equate desires to monsters and feeding them makes them stronger.
    Incest has obvious biological ramifications.
    Pedophilia not so much,along with a host of others.
    Age of consent is much lower in some countries, you just have to book a plane ticket
    I find it scary that people underestimate the power of conditioning.
    Subliminal messaging and propaganda is a big deal but people seem to ignore it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  8. Deleted member 155674

    Deleted member 155674 Guest

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    The way, I see it, the use of slaves in novels is probably because isekai and fantasy novels (as well as some games) are basically based on old human history but adding other elements like magic, goblins, half beasts or monster girls or furries or whatever you want to call them, etc..., not to mention some myths and folklores (like the japanese jorogumo or the succubus originating from jewish origins, etc...)
    Basically, authors will mix many things from different sources or/and origins to better offer an idea of their world/plot to the reader, and of course authors will change what they wannt according and see fit to their views and understanding thus their novels will be affected by their opinion, knowledge as well as religious and cultural 'subjection' (for example some will show demon lord as good misunderstood person/creature and some will show it as described in religious scriptures and books thus as evil, bad and a vile enemy, while others might go even further and lewd said creature o_O)
    Now, most fantasy and isekai novels that talks about other creatures and include humanoid ones will at some point include slavery as the author wants to deliver some idea (like description of cruelty, hard life, social or/and tribal disputes or wars, simply because the novel is a work of erotica, etc...)
    As for rape when in comes to slaves, it depends on the work in question (some novels will give slaves a certain rights and some will treat them as objects with no rights whatever) however, if we look into the meaning of the world slave (especially in the old ages and even worse a serf), it means an object/something (not a person as they lose all rights and in lots of cases they aren't even reffered to by 'him' or 'her' meaning they are and 'it'), so if you want an answer for "if you do it with slave is it count as rape or not" I say, if you arrmpt or do sex? with a chair or a table (even if they are propeties of some else) does that fall under the category of 'rape'?
     
  9. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Well, I never read the book, so I can't comment on it... But well, rape after aphrodisiac would still be rape IMO, they aren't in a sane state of mind after all.
     
  10. ZeroBlink

    ZeroBlink Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is rape and there are most certainly slaves in this world, mostly in 3rd world countries.

    Also you said "there is no sorrow" for certain types of slaves implying that some slavery is "unrealistic", It all comes down to a master and the public perception at the time.
    Say in ancient Rome A high ranking officer could be treated like shit or like a guest depending on who was enslaving him.
    Sometimes philosophers and great teachers would be captured and enslaved and then they would act as tutors for the Master's children.

    There is an inhumane element to slaver,in some eyes these are the people who killed your brothers and fathers in wars. In others eyes they were just workers , you don't always beat your property bloody , that wouldn't be profitable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  11. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    I learnt that accounting statement was invented by Roman slaves since their soldier/centurion masters would kill them if their property was reduced when they came back from war as the slaves usually managed their property.

    With things like Harvey Weinstein and the South Korean Burning Scandal, sexual slavery is also prevalent in first world countries

    The point is that Lolita book is where the word lolicon came from, it is a negative term. It has been glamorized by the media, the same with rape and other negative things
     
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  12. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    This is a repeated question that have been answered multiple times in the past year if you search for it.

    The reason why Japanese isekai stories feature slavery is because of real life European history. The Japanese did away with slavery at least a century earlier than their European counterpart in the 16th century, with slavery existing in the Americas even in the 18th century. They put slavery in their isekai stories because they believed it to be realistic with that period of time in Europe, considering that most of the isekai setting are medieval Europe.

    While one can argue that slavery wasn't really that widespread in Europe in the middle ages, it did happen. It happened a lot, they just weren't legalized or supported by the government. Slavery in medieval Europe was messy and nasty. In comparison, the Japanese abolished slavery much earlier, and even when they practiced slavery before that, the slaves were given minimum courtesy as following Buddhist traditions.

    tl;dr
    1) Portraying slavery in isekai is not because they like slavery
    2) They think slavery in isekai is realistic because medieval Europe practiced slavery
    3) They include slavery to show that the Japanese had better morals than the white people in Europe
     
  13. Karyehs

    Karyehs Well-Known Member

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    Idk where you learned this. At least double-entry accounting (which is still used nowdays) was't invented by roman slaves. A quick google search didn't verify your statement, if you got a link it would be nice to share it.

    https://www.metamarklearning.com/wh...tement-and-the-cash-flow-statement-come-from/

    About your weird obsession with the book 'Lolita': If you were ever an 'attractive young-ish male in his twenties to thirties', you'd know how much in common girls (/young women) from the on-set of puberty have with female dogs in their first heat. Especially if the young woman has self confidence and wasn't raised like a weak willed scared-of-everything wallflower. Young, confident, horny girls are aggressive as hell. They are kinda scary. Seriously. Being horny, confused and emotional unsteady is stuff of horror movies. Especially, when the man is always the bad guy, no matter if he ignores it, rejects her, or worse, doesn't reject.
     
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  14. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    I think it was based on a myth, but my point was that some slaves were accountants who were killed for the slightest offense by their masters.
    On my supposed obsession with the book lolita, I am talking about an unreliable narrator and grooming.
    The example does not have to be the book titled Lolita. Any story with a narrator who doesnt even care to give a name to a character and treats them as an object would suffice as well.
    If you think unreliable narrators arent a thing or grooming isnt an issue then suit yourself
     
  15. Karyehs

    Karyehs Well-Known Member

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    "I learnt that accounting statement was invented by Roman slaves since their soldier/centurion masters would kill them if their property was reduced when they came back from war as the slaves usually managed their property."

    sounds very different from

    "but my point was that some slaves were accountants who were killed for the slightest offense by their masters"

    All types of educated and uneducated people were slaves. Even rulers and their family were made slaves after a lost conflict/coup.

    What do unreliable narrators have to do with the existence of young, aggressive, sexually maturing women? They exist.
     
  16. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    Lolita is not about a young sexually aggressive woman. It is about a child whom the pedophile protagonist was sexually obsessed with(According to the Foreward of the book).
    About the accounting and slaves, I got it from a translation, so I am not surprised that it was erroneous. It was quoted in a TV Show
    https://www.viki.com/videos/1115538v-chief-kim-episode-1?locale=en
     
  17. firefox1234

    firefox1234 Well-Known Member

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    Lol! Why is it so hard for people to understand that slaves cannot give consent. They wouldn't be slaves otherwise....
     
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  18. Karyehs

    Karyehs Well-Known Member

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    If you look at this like that, then there is no reason to be nice to your (sex) slaves. :/
     
  19. flannan

    flannan Well-Known Member

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    The closest you can get to isekai-type slavery IRL is getting into a BDSM-themed relationship. Which would arguably be the best of both worlds. Japan has its share of problems, but slavery isn't one of them.
    By modern standards, sex with a slave would automatically count as rape, unless you're their fellow slave. By old-timey standards, it's rape to have sex with anybody you aren't married to, but nobody would defend a slave from it (but if you're married, it's still cheating and can get you in trouble).

    Fantasy worlds can be strange places, with weird mix of medieval barbarism and modern culture.
    But it's important to understand that there were many kinds of slavery historically. When an Ancient Greek bought a slave to help on his family farm, he would treat that slave as a part of his family (much like a modern farmer would treat a hired farmhand). When another Ancient Greek bought a bunch of slaves to work in a silver mine, they would be treated much worse.
    It's also notable that most Japanese fantasy worlds don't have slaves as a major part of the economy. Neither did historical Middle Ages. Those huge slave plantations of Ancient Rome were only possible for the heartland of a huge empire. A fantasy world where you have to fight off monsters all the time can't afford widespread slavery. So you mostly see slavery as punishment for crimes, or slaves as luxury goods.

    No, the author doesn't need a reason. Fantasy is full of things that are good and right, even if they don't make any sense. Like bikini armor, or tangible good and evil. This modern trend to try and have everything make sense is just ruining fantasy.

    According to my knowledge, sexual sadism isn't universal among male population. You and me, we just happen to have it.

    Nah, unless you are appealing to a fetish, these things are bad for your writing. You can always use free people around MC as plot hooks, but it's harder with a slave.
     
  20. flannan

    flannan Well-Known Member

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    I prefer to see my desires as tame animals, cute and fluffy. This way, we get along just fine.

    Pedophilia has a whole lot of problems. Children aren't ready to bear children and give childbirth, it might kill them.

    There are plenty of reasons to be nice to your slaves. Doubly so to slaves you plan to be all naked and unarmed around.
    Laws aren't everything you need to care about.

    Wow, turns out tsundere are real.
     
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