Discussion in 'Novel Discussion' started by flamingorangesoof, Mar 26, 2020.
I made this to watch a shitshow of people fighting
I wanted to read this but then I found out through the reviews who the ML was..
It’s okay. You don’t have to read it
I'm one of those people! I disliked some people who made the novel seem like it's the best novel ever when it has plot holes and story elements that is poorly executed. Esp those who defended the trash, "It WaSnT hE's FaUlt, he WaS dRuGGed" and all other reasons that is just plain SOPHISTRY. /end rant.
Well, there isn't exactly gonna be a fight here when there's no one on the opposite side, lmao
And the score/reviews in NU for this has more point than all the sophistry the translators/defenders in the spoilers thread had.
Oh god I hated it
The ML is trash even without being drugged.What irritates me the most is most defenders only talk about his sob story. The fact that he was not in his right mind in the first timeline means that he is not responsible for his crimes and so now he is an eligible love interest.But what about FL?She remembers what happened in the 1st timeline.What she went through cannot be forgotten ever.Even if his personality is different( which is not true), he is still the same person.He looks the same.Even if she forgives him how can she bring herself to stay with him. The author keeps flip flopping between making her act normal one second and make her act traumatized the next.
It's bland. The author backed out twice on the translators or whatever I think. So yeah.
True to that. The inconsistency of her emotional state is what I'm disturbed about. Her mother died for her in the first TL and she didn't self blame for that, but that prince, ugh, you don't need a tragic backstory to be an asshole.
Eh, I'll bite.
Literally no one said that.
It's a reason and a catalyst for how he got that bad, but it's never treated as an excuse. In fact, the person who spoiled that explicitly says the same thing I think a major point people are missing is that both versions of the ML (1st timeline ML and 2nd Timeline ML) are treated and considered to be two different characters.
I guarantee you, nobody who's following the story or spoiling it like I am, actually likes the 1st Timeline ML or think he was redeemed. We all consider him a total bastard that died a fittingly cold, lonely, and ironic death. I have the entire Wandering Willows discord to back me up on this. (also if you wanna know how he died I can link back to that if you want~)
The ML in the 2nd Timeline is considered to be an entirely different character both by the plot and shippers alike. This is due to 2 reasons:
First, the MC gets sent back to a time where they're both children. That automatically gives him a different slate because he hadn't become the person who would do that yet. He's a little bit of an envious brat but nothing worse than a little distant an unsociable to her at this point not straight out malicious. He's actually mainly baffled by her since he doesn't know why she's so scared of him all the time. Plus, it's hard to hold a 14-year accountable for murder and rape that they don't even know about.
Second, he develops into an entirely different person, he's nice enough in fact that you can't even consider him tsundere let alone a jerk. The MC and the former heroine character that gets sent back in time can't even recognize him as the 1st Timeline ML (this one is in parts)
At first, he only starts he becomes a bit more considerate of Tia as time goes on because he's wary that she's part of some ploy to gain power (which does have precedent), and acts better when it's clear she isn't.
The biggest part of this, however, is that he actually learns about his 1st Timeline self after he discovers some notes the MC wrote. He's completely and utterly horrified because he can't even comprehend doing that (r*pe, murder, miscarriage, etc.) to anyone let alone the MC. It pretty much accelerates his character development, he was headed down a good road before this, but this is what cements it.
He goes so far as to arrange things so that the MC will be in a good position to break things off if she chooses (they can't atm because it'll cause a political schism), and even pushes her in the direction of one of the other MLs because he knows they'll protect her.
When she does accept his proposal in the end he pulls a lot of strings so she can be Knight Captain AND Empress at the same time.
I wanna note that the MC always hates 1st Timeline ML even in the ending (she nearly bitchslaps the heroine when she even implies he might have had feeling for him).
Just so you know btw those ratings were when the spoilers thread was young and we got things out of context. The actual story is pretty dang popular especially on discord and in Korea since people have a better idea of what happens since they follow it. Not to mention having a very skilled illustrator. (and over 110+ chapters)
People always rush down to the strawman He WaS DrUgGeD argument and never really acknowledging the actual points being made. Nobody's saying that excused it. You're just ignoring literally everything else in the story. If the story was that simple it wouldn't be as well-loved amongst the people spoiling it as it is.
Whenever I hear people complaining about the final pairing I never see any of them acknowledge any of the two points. It's almost as though they have no counterargument and that their idea of what happens is based on out-of-context spoilers. Overall people like the 2nd Timeline ML because of his sympathetic circumstances and the contrast on how he grew out of them vs the 1st timeline where he let them rule him until he died.
BTW I finished my manhwa based story summary and posted it in The Abandoned Empress Spoilers thread if you're interested since I think you were one of the people who asked.
Also is it okay if I link back to this thread on the spoilers thread? It's better here than there.
The prince is trashy. Look how he did terrible things to the foreign princess. He did it for himself 'cause of politics and her gratitude and love. It's such a crazy scheme. On behalf of her, he did bully the princess to attract her attention. He's such a selfish, artful and disgusting abuser. He's never changed, stop whitewashing him. He only changed the way he treated her.
You mean how he only mildly humiliated her for harassing his fiance and trying to stir tension in an incredibly important political meeting and then let her off easy for what is essentialy fraud and treason~
Or are you talking about how he allowed the other princesses to leave completely scott-free by allowing them back down when he had dirt on them and could have justifiably hurt their countries despite them committing similar crimes~
Or do you mean how when he found out one princess was pregnant with another man's baby he gave her protection from her own country and potentially made enemies of them for covering for her~
Or how he explicitly told Tia he wants her to have a choice and doesn't want to force the marriage on her~
Looks like someone can't read or is an insanely dedicated troll~
Considering you only post in AE to stir shit I think the latter is true~
I love how you, like everyone in your stance completely ignore the fact that he found out about the 1st timeline and utterly hates his alternate self~
Keep in mind this stance is you vs people with access to the source of spoilers. You're not gonna look more credible.
In fact it says a lot that the people who defend the story are the ones who actually have full access to it. Really makes you think~
Why are you under the assumption that I didn't read the novel just because I am not defending the story?I read the novel and even really liked the first part but as a whole the novel is not my cup of tea.People have different viewpoints.You can't just dismiss someone's as insanely dedicated trolling. By your logic I can call your dedicated defense as blind fan following.
Aren't you doing exactly what I was talking about?Only looking at stuff from the Male lead's POV?Let's say the ML is different in both timelines, which for me he isn't, not committing rape and murder doesn't make him any less of a douchebag, but everyone can have their own opinion about him.Frankly even if I had liked him in the 2nd timeline that won't make me actually say this story was any good.Because I don't care a dime about him
My point of argument will always be the Female lead and the female lead alone.How do you think trauma works?It's not like flipping a switch.Ending up with someone who will be a constant reminder of what happened is not romantic it's a freaking tragedy.You can argue that the FL says that she hates the ML of the first timeline but that's were bad writing comes up. Her PTSD is only touched upon when it is necessary for the plot while on other occasions it's conveniently forgotten.Ofcourse you can't expect a realistic depiction in a light novel but to actually give such an ending....Just because it's popular doesn't mean you can't say there is nothing wrong in it. Ofcourse it's wrong to compare AE with them, but chinese CEO novels are extremely popular that doesn't mean that they are great pieces of literature.If you like it than its okay but you can't expect everyone to like it
Nah he's still a bully. He hasn't changed yet. You can't change the fact. So he should have arrested that foreign princess instead of giving her a TIGHT dress. And he could have reduced Jieun's sentence at first when he passed a death sentence for people who get involved in Jenna's plan. However, he ignored it. He only did that after his lover Tia begged him to save Jieun 'cause she saved Tia. Why didn't he save Jieun at first? Because he wanted to take revenge on Jieun since Jieun stole Tia's idea. What a mean brat!
Trying this novel
Rebirth: The Abandoned Empress (GL)
Mc dump stupid and abuser Scum emperor who killed her family and her after using her. She get second chance, FL killed scum emperor after he killed MC. It was interesting GL rebirth novel.
I hate this novel. Thank gods I read spoiler about who is ML.
Uh, her PTSD was a pretty big part of the story in fact the first third of it is about her recovering from it.
I don't know where you get her PTSD being turned off when it's "inconvenient" when Ruve gets the least amount of time with her in part 1 when she freezes whenever they get close. Remember, she only gets slightly better each time she's forced to visit because she's also spending time with her support network and gradually recovering, the only exception was when she was delirious and about to collapse with a fever.
Again her being able to even stand Ruve was very gradual, and even then it's only as much as she can put up a straight face.
There are also other signs too. She suffered from night terrors and nightmares a few times early into the first 1/3rd of the story. She clearly also has some trust issues with guys (even if it could be expanded upon). This pretty much shown where she freaks out when Allendis even implied he didn't believe her when she talked about the 1st Timeline and couldn't even tell her own dad until a bit later one because she's worried he won't believe her which would strain their relationship.
Remember, you're forgetting the absolutely amazing support network Tia has. Not only does she have the whole knight squadron which treats her like a little sister, but Carsein, Allendis, and her dad. Even better, she was able to talk about her trauma in the 1st Timeline with the last two characters. There were also a pretty large timeskips that would span months, and a few occasions one or two years. With this in mind it wouldn't be out of the picture that she'd recover a decent amount by the time they were both adults.
And even then let me remind you that she's only able to be not-uncomfortable around him. At best she considers him an acquaintance or business partner. It's also made perfectly clear through her inner dialogue that she still clearly doesn't trust him not to fall for Jieun again. She doesn't just jump into his arms and it takes even longer for her to even consider him as a serious romantic partner; they only become a couple in what is literally the last portion of the story.
So yeah, it's not unreasonable to believe she'd recover due to:
A really big support network
A lot of time
The fact that 2nd Timeline ML acts nothing like the one from the 1st Timeline
Literally, all those times where he constantly tells her that he doesn't want to force her into marriage even if he does have feelings for her and wants her to have a choice and deliberately sets things up so she'll be in the perfect position if it does get broken off.
It's not easy, but people also recover from trauma, and that's what a majority of the first portion of the story is about.
Let me reiterate my main point, the story and the characters also view both MLs as two different characters this is a big plot point and the reason why I didn't think you read the story/spoilers. When they're adults and far later into the story past a point where Jieun (the previous heroine) returns (which is the only time Ruve ever makes romantic progress mind you), Tia explicitly states that she considers both Ruves to be two entirely different people because they act nothing alike. It's a big reason why Jieun gives up her revenge plan when she's in perfect position to ruin him. Heck, they crack a joke about how he essentially cucked himself.
For Tia, it wasn't her going back to her abuser, it was her going to her abuser's better twin brother if that makes sense.
Also, sit there and explain to me how a 14-year old boy can be held responsible for a rape, murder, and miscarriage he didn't even know about that his alternate self committed. If you can do that without sounding absolutely crazy I'll gladly shut up.
I'll go back to my example let me paint you a picture: You're a vicious serial killer in one timeline, one of your victims gets sent back in time to when you are both in your developmental stage (children to teenager). Due to a series of events they unintentionally kick-off, you grow up drastically differently and end up a well-adjusted and well-loved adult you would never even consider doing what your 1st timeline self did. Should you be held accountable for your other life's crimes? Do you know how crazy it would sound if people were calling to have you executed for something you don't even remember doing or would even do?
Let me reiterate again, I haven't said, not once, that 2nd timeline Ruve should be held accountable for what he did in the 1st timeline.I think he is still a terrible human being, but that's my opinion.
Coming back to Tia.I did say I liked the first part of the story didn't I?I do think the author tried to portray trauma, but she couldn't properly that's it.Other than the 'freezing when she saw the ML' nothing is consistent.Her reactions are what the plot needs.Trauma makes your life hell.You can't calculate when she is going to have an episode.Of course you can have triggers but there are other symptoms too.Physical,mental, behavioural, emotional.Symptoms which are always there.Ofcourse they might manifest in different manner in different individuals.But here the author seems too have put in just a textbook overview of the disease. Anyways in case of illnesses like PTSD you treat the symptoms.If you do so sometimes the disease can be treated in months. If left untreated it can last for the rest of your life and can even make the patient go into shock.You can argue Tia has a support system but having people around you isn't equal to getting the help you need.I agree she talks to her father about what happened but it's just one step.Plus talking isn't equal to therapy.
The most essential part of treatment is addressing the trigger itself.Infact staying away from it is what's advised.Does that happen in this case?She practically ends up with a constant reminder of it.
Even if she recovers the disease can always relapse.The past will remain unchanged.Her memories will remain unchanged.His face will always be associated with pain. Doesn't that make this ending a tragedy for Tia?Everything is fine and dandy now, but someday down the road without any rhyme or reason she would suddenly start seeing Ruve not as someone she loves but as a monster? Ofcourse this would be true if things were realistically portrayed. Fans herald this story as this great depiction of PTSD, but it makes a mockery of it. Infact thats my biggest problem with the series.If it wasn't so hyped up I wouldn't have had issue with it.For me it would still be cruel tragic ending for Tia, but it would be an ok story, maybe not be my liking but still good. The pages and pages long dissertations on how mental illness is realistically depicted in this series is what gets to me.I haven't even gone into Ruve and schizophrenia drug.How is that great portrayal?
Let me clarify: I brought up the two Ruves because that was a major reason why Tia was able to let her guard down around him as adults and in spite of her earlier trauma- she couldn't reconcile the two as the same people.
Now, first I'd like to refute your statement that 2nd Timeline ML is a terrible person:
Pre Character development-
At worst he's kind of a brat. The most he ever does to Tia is glare at her on occasion and be a bit offputting. In fact that's why she confused him so much: he hadn't done anything to her, so why would a stranger who just met him be so scared of him?
Post Character Development-
Nope. Nope absolutely not. You can't even call him a jerk or tsundere for the matter. He's pretty dang well-loved by his people (in contrast to the 1st Timeline ML), he has a 100% adoration rating among his knight squadron-even going so far as to station them in a mansion cursed with air conditioning in the middle of summer, heck he's on pretty good terms with the other MLs too and even lets Allendis off easily when he suspects him of unintentionally putting Tia in the middle of an assassination attempt by giving him a post far from the capital. The most you could say was the princess incident and I've debunked that above. Plus, as I mentioned he specifically alligns things so that Tia won't face any backlash and will be in the perfect position to inherit her Father's title once they're able to break off the engagement.
Next, Tia's Trauma:
First of all, yes she does stay away from him
He without a doubt is the ML with the least amount of interaction with her throughout the 1st part of the story. The moments when they're together are brief and far between and they really only have their first full conversation during Ruve's coming of age. When I say gradual, I mean gradual.
Like actual triggers, as she was building up a support network it was really only becoming dormant and reemerged during when Ruve accidentally triggered it when he confronted her to ask why she's so afraid of him.
You're under a mistaken assumption if you believe the story we see had been happening between a "few months". The entire first part of the story takes place over the course of years. Of which Ruve and Tia only meet a small handful of times. You talk as though he's always near her every day. And just because she didn't have a therapist to walk her through it, it doesn't mean she couldn't take action to place her self in the road to recovery, which she did by finding new interests, talking about her trauma, and constantly surrounding herself by people who support her.
Even then it's only enough for Tia to be comfortable around him when they're almost adults. She doesn't seriously consider him romantically until near her mid-twenties. A reminder she reincarnated to around age 9.
I brought up the characters considering 2nd Timeline Ruve to be a different person for this reason: a major contributing factor to Tia being able to drop her guard around him as an adult is because she can not recognize him as the same person who hurt her in the last life. This goes the same for Jieun as well who came back with the explicit purpose of ruining him. Everything, from the way he carried himself, to how he looked at others, to how he spoke, to even how he dressed was completely polar opposite to his alternate self, it's like night and day.
I'm not saying it's a perfect portrayal of PTSD, there are definitely some hiccups. As you said, for example, the fact that Ruve is essentially a walking trigger for her could have been done more interestingly and be handled with a bit more grace to it, the progression of their relationship probably should have been a bit slower in that respect or haveing Ruve handle being essentially his crush's walking trigger. We also could've seen more of her conversations with Allendis and her Father in regards to her trauma, since that's essentially the closes thing we'd find to psychological help in this setting. They also could have shown her relapsing a bit more.
But to say it's something the author picked up and dropped off as soon as it was inconvenient? That it makes a mockery of it when it's one of the biggest causes of character drama early on? I'd say that's definitely wrong. Even if they didn't stick the landing as well as they could, I definitely feel like the author genuinely wanted to write it well here and put quite a bit of effort into it. That's more than I could say for a lot of other works.
Next funny thing you mentioned the drugs because there actually is a poison that can do that.
Mercury poisoning, in fact, causes almost the exact same symptoms we see in the story, up to and including insomnia, irritability, and mood swings.
In fact, that's where the term "Mad as a Hatter" comes from- as mercury was used in felt hats.
Not to mention it really is commonly used in assassinations and actually killed an Emperor in real life. Look up "Chinese Emperor Qin Shi Huang" if you don't believe me (though to be fair he drank it intentionally but my point still stands). It wouldn't be out of left field to assume there is something similar in the setting with the additional effects
And no one is saying 1st Timeline Ruve did all of that due to schizophrenia. The fact that he was being drugged made it easier to manipulate him and it was certainly a welcome symptom to the people manipulating him, but that's hardly the only factor. There are other things including and mainly, a genuinely realistic portrayal of emotional manipulation and isolation.
I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to herald it as an awesome portrayal of mental illness worthy of Steven Universe's level because it's not. But I'm not gonna pretend like it's making light of mental illnesses either because you can definitely tell the author wanted to do it well that they put a lot of care showing just how much Tia struggles and continues to struggle with it as an adult.
And another thing, speaking as someone who's had mental issues to grapple with, actually writing them is hard. Even if you have a good idea or experience of them, incorporating that well and gracefully into a story can be a monumental task. The barest minimum is to do it with grace and respect, which I definitely see here.
The way you argue sounds as though in the latter portion of the story Tia just flew into Ruve's arms, which was clearly not the case. There was a progression that felt natural, all the characters, with a few nonimportant ones being exceptions, change and develop over the course of the story especially the latter half, that's why so many people love it even now (both in Korea and Discord) and why it's so popular amongst people who are spoiling it.
This is why I called into question your credibility in having read the story because you seem to be missing (or ignoring in Ruve's case) some incredibly important character details and development. The story is filled with bits of important details, if you just read that from spoilers alone you'd be missing a lot.
Heck, Tia and Ruve aren't even my favorite characters here. That would have to go to Carsein (who's adorable) and Jieun who is by and large the best and most sympathetically written villainess characters I've ever read and has yet to be topped in any other novel.
ML is disgusting and terrible human being that deserved to rot in hell. Stop justice that kind of disgusting man. Go find that kind of man yourself if you like him. Little girl, I think you have thing for abuser and disgusting man like him. I don't like MC. She is Stockholm syndrome. I realized 90% female are Stockholm syndrome after reading all comment of them justice and dreaming that kind of rapist, abuser and douchebag ML.
Okay first let me say this for the third time: I hate Ruve's characterisation (2nd). However that's not the reason why I have a problem with the story even if he was one of the many reason why I was put off by it. I get why other people liked him but that doesn't mean everyone has to like him. He might be a little angel now for all I care but that won't change my feelings for him.That's my personal opinion.
I can't really argue about the schizophrenia drug on story basis,since the flashback was where I stopped caring about the story and started skimming. Maybe you are right. Maybe it's an actual drug. But it's not an excuse for what he did.On top of that he was always a horrible human being even before the drugging. What I meant when I said 'portrayal' was how the disease was vilified as a crime. You might not do that but most fans come up with argument that he was mentally ill. That's why he did what he did. Because being sick is a crime You can say this was just a plot point and many novels do the same, but then why praise it for portrayal.
Why do you keep mentioning discord though?It's a community of fans, of course you are going to find like minded people there.Again popularity is not necessarily a measure of quality.I have lived in Korea for a while and I can tell for certain that there have been loads of critics.
Let's just agree to disagree about Tia. Because for me nothing that happened with her was gradual. It was only gradual in the sense that the illness was present still the end. But the treatment and handling isn't. I am not saying she should just walk into a therapist's.Given the setting it would be stupid to say that.But that doesn't mean she doesn't need help. Again having people you love around you helps but it can also make you more volatile since you can't actually tell them what you are going through, and that can make things worse.
The illness is extremely dibilitating throughout. But the effects seem extremely selective in Tia's case. It's very wrong to say everyone will show the same symptoms but that doesn't change the fact that disease affects all spheres of your life.Thats why I said the author just made a cursory glance through an overview of the illness. I spent years around trauma patients as a part of research and it gets to my nerves when the disease is just used as a plot point.Its a serious illness.Handle it properly.Its not like a supporting character suffers through it. The main character does.Her trauma is made front and centre for a while and brushed under the rug the next.Of course writing about mental illness is hard.Its a very difficult and delicate topic but that doesnt mean you can excuse the problems by a 'she genuinely wanted to write'.I did say she tried. That in the beginning it seemed like it would be a proper depiction. It's not a mockery because of the start.It becomes one based on the ending and how the ending is reached.
can we just agree that Ruve being drugged and having misunderstanding is just plot armor??
Tell me, are a masochist and having Stockholm syndrome? That's just plot armor and the protagonist halo shining so bright it's blinding me. Literally, the armor's so hard and thick it's harder than bedrock and evening lava can't melt it
and bruh!! That's call stay away?? Even Phoenix Nirvana's mc does better than Tia in keep away
and seriously?? "Jieun who is by and large the best and most sympathetically written villainess characters I've ever read and has yet to be topped in any other novel" well ur standard is SO low!! Have u read any of Mo Xiang Tong Xiu's novel? Now that's call sympathetically and well written
Allendis is Sooo much better than Ruve by far. He knows to stop before it's TOO late and take a step back.(and that means when he got Tia killed like Ruve over there) and don't tell me Ruve tried to save her, HE'S THE FUCKING EMPEROR!!! As China has a old saying, shi Shan Wu Nan shi, zhi pa you xing ren. It's means "there's no such thing as hard/impossible, just afraid there's ppl who didn't have the mind to.
Allendis is like Fuca Fuheng, he root wants to forcefully tie YingLuo to his side but in the end he didn't. He choose to watch over her and protect her from the shadow. Allen is like that
Exactly, some ppl like well "2nd timeline he didn't remember" well what about Tia??
OML EXCUSES!! aND FUCKING PLOT ARMOR!!! can I just say the protagonist halo shining so bright it's blinding me. Literally, the armor's so hard and thick it's harder than bedrock and even lava can't melt it
Separate names with a comma.