Discussion The Abandoned Empress

Discussion in 'Novel Discussion' started by flamingorangesoof, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    I went through so many different forums to find your reply because I saw the original forum has been closed for a while now. I just have to say, I've been saying the same thing about TAE for YEARS and I still can't understand why people just don't read the whole story instead of basing it off of out-of-context-spoilers. I mean the literal first few replies in the original forum are people complaining about the ML when they had no clue as to why he's the ML.

    It was just: Oh Ruve ML? Ruve bad boohoo Author condemn SA
    and the disastrous assumptions on the people who defended the story itself that they condone se*ual assault or murder? I even had an argument about this today and the last time I had an argument about this was 2 years ago? I lost my passion for fighting about this series but the next time someone picks up a fight about this I'm just sending them a link to your arguments on this series because they are exactly what I mean to say. Btw, I am most definitely aware that your replies are from 2 years ago but I saw them today and I was like, Bravo! :blob_plusone:
     
  2. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    That's just the problem, Abandoned Empress is okay.. except for the ending. Having Ruve be the ML undermines the themes and Tia's character, it is unsatisfying and angering, and also just quite uninteresting to read. A good series that squanders it's potential will always cause more outrage than a series that was bad all the way through.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
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  3. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    Oh here's a wild suggestion: perhaps people can acknowledge the faults in the story and still appreciate it. The story's theme was based upon Tia being the pioneer of the destiny.

    In the end being with Ruve was a choice of her own, sure her initial goal was becoming the marquess's successor and eventually become the Marchioness which is one goal I absolutely loved of hers but goals and ideal change in life as priorities change. The main characters don't follow a very set path from the beginning, over the course of almost a decade. So many unsaid feelings, Allendis' real personality, Carsein and Tia and most importantly... Tia and Ruve's development. I must say that unlike what people cry about, Tia's trauma was very well explored because it was arguably the first theme of the story: or even the first season.

    Like people have previously mentioned, the first season takes course over years. The story itself is pretty slow-paced, accommodating readers to it's surroundings in a very peaceful manner. Even Ruve is mentioned here and there, giving insight into his character. he's not at all the 'oh-he-has-trauma-so-its-all-justified' character people make him out to be. The first TL's Ruve isn't forgiven even in the end, he was treated as a separate individual after a certain point in the story and it was right to do so. He was given a backstory to explain his actions and that he too was suffering along with making everyone suffer along with him.

    He's a POS but, he had his reasons. He was ruined very early on. His backstory highlighted the nurture not nature aspect of the story. The second TL Ruve changed his path or rather was changed when he got to know Aristia herself as a child. She was nothing like what he'd been told or imagined. He grew up surrounded by different people this time around, Duke Jenna was no longer trusted, he didn't have any misunderstandings about Tia and there were better people to guide him. Aristia didn't go back to Ruve, She chose him. The Ruve she chose, she'd never been with him. It's the fan's misunderstanding that Tia went back to her abusive husband, because she did not. That is another aspect of the story I like.

    People who keep on wasting their time here on a series they claim to be uninteresting are more funny to watch, aren't they? TAE lived up to it's expectations for me, but in a different way than initially expected, but it was carried out well so it was fine. It's been quite literally years, so if you didn't like the series, your ''anger'' should have subsided by now unless you get a kick out of trash talking about a series you didn't understand nor seem to want to understand. It's okay either way though, this has been an enjoyable discussion, have a good day then.
     
  4. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    Correct but I don't see the defenders talking about that here.
    Her trauma was well explored? Not really. Have you read this:
    Gonna qoute this;
    "trash talking about a series you didn't understand nor seem to want to understand"
    Funny, You're a blind fan follower if you can't acknowledge what the author failed to write well. The author obviously failed to write his/her story's chosen themes properly.
    That's why most people disliked this story.

    Many readers hate stories like this where the FL regressed and then had to change her self so that she won’t be SA’d or otherwise abused. This is basically implying it’s her fault for behaving in a way that wasn’t cheerful. The fact that there was nothing wrong with Tia in her previous life but she still had to, for some reason, change to become a "better person" in her new life. All she had to do was gain agency over her own life, something she didn't have in her previous life because of ruve. However, in the end, i feel like she didn't gain the agency she set out to gain in the beginning either.

    Ranting about this story here is still somewhat cathartic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2022
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  5. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    Have you considered this?

    Not all people handle Trauma the same way.

    I know it might be a shocking concept to some of you, but there's no right way to handle trauma. In fact, people who police around other victims on how they deal with their trauma are very much despised. The same thing can happen to two different people and their result could end up being completely different, for a quick reference: Atsushi Nakajima and Lucy Montgomery. Both were abused by their own respective head masters yet one developed the attitude of hating everyone else who was happy and another hated himself and felt happiness of being loved by others was a foreign concept.

    That is a perfectly shown example of how everyone deals with trauma and their emotions in a different way. Another thing, another reason why people hate the 'Oh this character also experienced _______ but they didn't turn out that way' saying is because it invalidates every other way another victim deals with things and ignores their feelings. The person who made that cannot speak for everyone, I cannot speak for everyone, one PTSD patient might say something like that, but that doesn't mean everyone in the world has the same opinion as them.

    The topic of how people deal with abuse, pain, and anything going on in their lives is a very vast one. No matter how much anyone tries to be the correct one they just cannot be. Every human being is different, do not ignore that please.

    For the matter of being a fan or follower, I'd say I'd disagree. The series was taking too long to be translated around the time when I was last reading it and I ended up dropping it, but I went back and read the summaries and some chapters and I'd say it was a decent one. But it wasn't a story I liked to the point of defending it all the time. As previously mentioned, this is the first time I'm even having a discussion on it after two years. Nevertheless, if you meant to say that to try to insult me, you have utterly failed.

    And I won't even argue with you about 2nd TL Ruve, he was at most a brat in his childhood and jealous of Aristia, he talked nonsense but he never spoke anything too out of line except a few times, when he said Tia wants to be the Empress because she doesn't consider herself low enough to be a concubine. That was shitty but that was probably about the worsts of it. I'll quote this on that by @LockedPuppet but be aware that I do not intend to partake in this useless debate any longer.

     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2022
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  6. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    Okay but I will keep on my stance how these fans glossed over the grave problems of this story. What @Lourie said was based. I'm just gonna qoute @Lamune44 about this:
    When we see a well researched story, we love to see it. Unfortunately, the constant romanticizing of a toxic relationship is a very old trope that's used in all forms of entertainment. I don't ever come into otome isekai or anything else with high expectations because it's just what it is. However, in my belief, it's important for readers to still point these things out as a form of criticism so we don't end up normalizing it too much. There's real life consequences from storytelling like these, as majority of the readers consuming it are young and therefore impressionable. And, I think it's just in our nature as readers to give criticisms or compliments as it shows how much we've invested in a story.

    Completely irrelevant point, I personally find it quite sad that artists sit on their ass to draw all these scenes out just to amount to some shitty story... I mean, technically you don't need to write a good story, you just need to write a story that gains popularity. It's just unfortunate since AE had some potential to actually be written decently.
     
  7. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    All I have to say about that is that Ruvellis has trauma with women and it's valid and acknowledged in the story. He was expected to protect his mother and Tia + her mum when he was literally nine years old from an assassin and the person he thought would protect him and care for him didn't hesitate to protect someone else - even if it was her own daughter. He was not Tia's mother's son sure, but at the time he was a very young child who saw the empress push him to fight against an assassin to protect the three of them. He definitely looked up to her like a mother/aunt figure and felt betrayed which is completely understandable because again, he was a child.

    He had no positive female figures in his life because his mother was a bitch and the Duchess was not the kindest to him either. The Marchioness was the only one he had an affectionate relationship with and he developed trust with her and she soon ended up dying.
    His jealousy for Tia as a child was pretty realistic, because children just are like that and there's not much you can even do about it. He ends up becoming a gentleman in his later teenage years and I won't accept any slander to him (2nd TL). Even to the women who he had every advantage over and could've benefited from the ruin of:

    Anyways, my conclusion is: people should stop policing other people about their trauma and acknowledge that Ruve, the second TL one, is not a bad ML whatsoever and is separate from his other counterpart. Any further arguments and all I'll say to anyone is:
    cry about it blobmelt_thumbs
     
  8. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    Uh huh. I guess you're one of those people who ignores ruve's toxic behavior like disrespecting the FL's wish to become a knight, threw a tantrum and embarrassed her in the entire court and then invades her personal space when she was clearly on distress. He was requested by FL's mother to protect her but he didn't. :blobpats:

    But I guess girls like toxic shit like that right? :blobjoy:
    Oh wait, the FL did. Lmao

    He gets even worse when he refused to sign the annulment papers to cancel their engagement, and lied to Tia about it, having her believe they weren’t engaged anymore when they still were. Tia had every right to be mad at him, but he wants to flip the script and push the blame on her, stating “she’s been lying to him about her feelings”. Dude’s talking about “wanting to respect her wishes”, but goes and contradicts himself. Even if she did have feelings for him, respect the lady’s wishes and annual the engagement like she asked; if she really loves you, she’ll come back to you! I thought he got better as a person, with the whole changed timeline thing, but what he did with a knight’s oath and engagement, just showed his true colors! Those acts that Ruve did to Tia showed what a super selfish and disrespectful person he can be, and I definitely couldn’t stand him as a main love interest after that. Tia and Ruve’s romance is a complete failure with no dynamic whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2022
  9. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    Nope, but I am one of those people who don't ignore the fact that Aristia kept playing with Ruve's feelings and made him suffer by suddenly pushing and pulling him away because of something he never did. Do you remember what the knight oath to the royal family meant? Why Keiran was so against it?

    It meant that the person taking the oath would become a dog to the royal family for the rest of their life. That she would never be anything more than a servant to Ruve, this was also right after they had a very tearful scene and Ruveliss clearly was not in a fit state of mind and got extremely anxious and acted on impulse, but never once did he humiliate her. Other people's mental breakdowns matter too.

    Plus he never once stopped her from becoming a knight, If I remember right, she lead the knights even after she became Empress. Of course, since the artist got so much hate by people who only read out-of-context spoilers, she had to rush the manhwa.

    Also for the matter of 'Implications' you can't help but accept it: Every person needs to be approached a different way. Tia in the first TL was extremely cold, her attitude contributed to the misunderstandings surrounding her. She never tried to change them as well. She was like a doll. that made the first TL Ruve fall deeper into Jenna's traps that she looked down on him. It wasn't her fault anything happened to her, but her attitude of never letting people know what she was thinking made her dug a hole for herself.

    No one knows what she wants, no one knew how much pain she was in after she lost her own child. Just because she couldn't express it, that led to the disastrous path in her life. It was a severe disadvantage. This is actually one of the things I found the most painful about her previous self. She couldn't even cry when her beloved child died, and the one time she felt like she'd finally be happy, it was taken away from her.

    Arisita's expressive attitude in her second life made Ruve clear of what she was like and he didn't fall in Jenna's trap like his alternate world self did, knowing Aristia made Ruve doubt the people around him for the better.

    It is without a doubt true that nothing in the first life was Aristia's fault, but it is absolutely true that she had to make the right choices and actions this time around in a different way than before because if not, she wouldn't have been sent back in time.
    If you can't accept that, what's the point of reading a time-travel story?
     
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  10. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    Regardless, with such a powerful beginning, only to end with disappointment. I think a lot of markers touched up on why the story itself was disappointing. Evidently, people will either like the ML or not. But if you come to understand that Ari's main PTSD symptom (predominantly flashbacks) is actually an extremely severe symptom, then it begs the question as to how she was able to overcome her trauma after reading Allen's letter and literally talking to herself. Trauma is not to be taken lightly, and to write about it, one should have enough sense to research the topic thoroughly so to portray it properly.
    To quote @Xylade :
    And Lourie:
    But this is something I think I disliked the absolute most about this series: she never had a choice. In chapter 9, you see a scene of Ruve crying over Aristia. In chapter 142, you see that same scene. So, if the ending was predetermined since she was 10, Ari never 'escaped' her fate; Pioneer means nothing. Conclusively, this story speaks on how one cannot escape their fate. Well then damn, what was the point? And one last thing: Aristia's love was never real. We learn this in chapter 9. Her love was a substitute for Jieun's, who was dumped in another world at the fault of Vita. So then, what was the point of such information when she slowly begins to fall in love with Ruve in the second life? Is it to show that her love is free from the ties of fate? But such cannot be, since Tia is still strung along to the chaotic god's fate game.

    Tia's best ending is set aside for ruve's best ending. How aggravating is that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2022
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  11. Mis Occ

    Mis Occ Well-Known Member

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    As DB said here before:

    You see the problem with these type of stories where the protagonist goes back to the past and in the end, still ends up with her past abuser with the excuse of "he's changed, he's not the same person as he was in the past" is that it romanticizes past trauma, toxic relationships, and abusive behavior which is not and will never be a good reading material. Your pain or even a drug, although explains it, is never an excuse to abuse another. Moreover, the characters don't feel real at all, they just serve as a plot device so the audience's sympathy would fall on the female protagonist. Having side characters as a plot device isn't a bad thing yes but your main cast shouldn't just serve as some plot device, sadly in this case, they do.

    While we don't blame the characters for turning into what they are, it is ultimately the author's fault. Stories involving emotional abuse and healing over it takes a lot of emotional maturity. If the author intended for Ruve and Tia to end up together, she shouldn't have made him Tia's abuser. As a writer, you have the responsibility to take proper care of the themes you want to portray in order to not send the wrong message to your audience. Stories shape worldviews, folks.


    People should read this if they want an example of what bad writing is, how you shouldn't romanticize certain things, how the characters only serve as a plot device for the protagonist, and how the author failed to deliver her story's chosen themes properly.
     
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  12. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    Hello! I'm done with this conversation, but I would've come back if you'd actually read any other argument or even the story. The protagonist does not go back to the abuser she knew, rather someone completely different in the same body. The thing with time travel is that Aristia's past has very literally not happened in the second time line, so the ML has nothing to change from. That's all I'll say. The Ml and the first TL Ruve have been treated as different individuals and the protagonist simply realized that later on. One who hasn't done murder cannot repent on it and change.

    The fact that people who are against the story keep on ignorantly claiming that she went back to Ruve is what proves the fact that they never paid attention to the story and thus this story is an example of bad reviewship not bad Writing, Although I am aware you guys do it on purpose because well you can't do anything but repeat the same excuse over and over again, no matter how many times you say it, it simply cannot become the truth. People who ony focused on the romance aspect of the story forgot the immense focus on the characters themselves. The story is not just “Oh she ended up with Ruve” it's “Oh she stood her ground and only gave in when she realized that it was a different person than the one she knew.” It only implies that if Ruve had acted the same way as his alternate time line self, she would have never gotten with him because she knows better than to go back to a POS. She in facts want nothing to do with him.

    I would've had more to say but I am convinced this will be a fruitless discussion and so I must withdraw.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
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  13. Emile

    Emile Well-Known Member

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    I'll repeat what Ive said to someone else before:
    You sound like you already have your mind firmly made up and isn't really interested in being persuaded by anything I or anyone else has to say, so an extended debate with you would be a waste of time and effort ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ I'll agree you clearly didn't understand the point people here are trying to make. The point is they didn't change into a better person because they realized they were doing something wrong, they changed because the FL changed, and whether intentionally or unintentionally set off a chain of events that set them down a different path in this timeline. The abuser doesn't have to work at changing, all the effort is left on the shoulders of the victim to set things up so they won't be abusive this time around. Whether that's on purpose or accidental is irrelevant, the point is they didn't have to realize their actions were wrong or intentionally change their ways.

    And it's because it was resolved with drugs. It’s a very poor resolution and given that the author went as far as to write his backstory in a way that communicates to the reader that it makes sense why he would be so awful to her in the future of this life and her past life. It was a Zuko redemption arc that completely skipped over the meat of the events that led to his change. It tried to be faux deep by giving the MC frequent PTSD flashbacks only to discard it with no rhyme or reason when the ML needed to be pushed. The story was almost there, but completely fumbled at the finish line. Establishing the ML as this petty, cold, and abusive person only to turn around and absolve him of any responsibility and acknowledgement by making it a different timeline and putting him on drugs was such a cope-out. Other than being shocked at the actions of his past, the ML didnt change because he didn’t need to change and that left a bad taste in people’s mouths that read about his assault and him making her lick his shoe. It’s less who the MC ended up with and more how they ended up together. Is it fair that people dislike him for things he didn’t do in the second life? No. But it’s not really about what’s fair, it’s about how the narrative made majority of the readers feel and it certainly didn’t do him any favours either.
     
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  14. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    Oh goodness, might that be because the abuser is in question is dead? There is no abuser in the second time line, that is the point. I cannot be persuaded by wrong points, I apologize.

    I've already talked times and time again on the points you mentioned so I'll chose to not speak on them again at all. Have a fine day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
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  15. Mis Occ

    Mis Occ Well-Known Member

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    Sigh. This should be repeated again:
    Trauma isn't something Tia or any other character can just 'get over'. It's not a mountain Tia must climb in order to get over and get better. Trauma is carried with us, for the rest of our lives. Tia has scars from her trauma, the ones we can see and the ones she carries in her heart and mind. She isn't 'okay'...and that's okay. You can't just get over trauma, it's not like a physical wound that can be healed and forgotten about. The healing process is about being able to move forwards regardless of the trauma, not letting it hold you back, but it doesn't erase its presence. And some days, that trauma is more present compared to other days. Say Tia and Ruve get together, (which I know they do despite how improbable I see that as) and the two of them are living together. Then they get into a small fight, nothing big or anything, just a small dispute and Ruve makes an angered expression. That in itself could act as a trigger for Tia's PTSD. If this Ruve does something or anything that slightly resembles the old Ruve, (intentionally or unintentionally) it could hurt Tia's mental health. The whole relationship is going to be this new Ruve walking on eggshells so he doesn't trigger Tia's trama, and tell me, does that's sound like a good relationship to be in? It doesn't. It's not fair. Tia is in a relationship with someone that could worsen her mental health by accident, and Ruve is in a relationship with someone he can't even show his displeasure to, lest he reminds her of his past-timeline's self. I remember somewhere on the spoilers page that Tia openly tells Ruve how much she hates his other timeline counterpart, this after they get into a relationship and Ruve jokes about how his only competition was his past self, in which Tia responds that it wasn't even a competition and that the other Ruve was scum. I know that was supposed to show that Tia accepts this version of Ruve and sees this Ruve and the past timeline's Ruve as different people, but that doesn't mean that acknowledgement can stop this Ruve from accidentally triggering her PTSD. Even as someone that doesn't know much about PTSD, even I feel that whole relationship screams 'this is bad for Tia's mental health.' Quite simply, I don't believe a romantic relationship could truly work between the both of them. As you've said we can't hate 2nd TL Ruve as he was whitewashed and neither does Tia, but he could still cause her problems.

    Their dynamic left me feeling bitter at the toxic portrayal of a "true love" while being superficially "happy".

    How ignorant, if Ruve is the next emperor and he's aware of this. Why would Tia have to worry in anyway? He's supposedly different in this new TL remember? ;)
     
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  16. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
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    -

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  17. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Now that was a reaction I didn't expect to see in this thread~ *giggles*

    Can't say I don't understand why you feel that way though! XD
     
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  18. Mis Occ

    Mis Occ Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Is there any more of your retarded opinion?
     
  19. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    How savage, LMAO :blobjoy:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2022
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  20. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Well-Known Member

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