The Dark pits of Novel Commercialization

But there's absolutely no incentive to hire quality editors.

They cost money.
They need time to work their magic. ( Thus delaying releases and making less money to flow)
They demand the TL gives a modicum of effort.
They use fancy words half of the reader base doesn't get anyway.

High-quality translations do not earn more than low-quality translations of the same release rate. And that's because readers. DO. NOT. CARE.

As long as that stays the case, the rational thing to do is to not take on such an editing overhead. And we're left with our current situation when the best on offer is the haphazard and inconsistent product from WW and Volare.

 

Well, if you read such novels, you should be prepared to pay the price where your English might get affected.

And thus crappy quality continues

 

and pay $100 patreons for raw MTL

 

What the!!!!!!

 

You've misunderstood my point. I agree ISBN has nothing to do with amateur/ professional, what I meant is it acts as a filter, so questionable publications may surface less.

 

At that time most of the works were jp light novels right?
Since I started by reading at BT after a related manga or anime picked my interest, I guess that's why I remember it that way

 

you mean slightly better than GT

 

I disagree. Readers don't care when things are free, especially when many of the readers who cannot afford to pay are from countries where English isn't even the native language. When things start to cost money, you'll see a dramatic rise in quality of expectations.

As for the inconsistent product from WW, what? Here's a screenshot of our current 'updates' list from right now. While breaks and issues happen for everyone, I'll daresay that we actually have much fewer novels which go on hiatuses than the 'competition'!

 

I've seen a few arguments that say WW precipitated the start of the downward slope of everything, given that they approached Qidian, but I feel that Ren saw what was coming and jumped into the driver's seat to ensure that as much control over his future destiny as possible. WW announced their deal in.. Dec 2016? (Man in feels like an eternity ago), but they were already at a size in which they were drawing hefty (social) media attention. They'd already been in several articles as well, so it was only a matter of time before they drew attention from the Chinese publishers. And when something like cultural export is the subject, you can bet that the Chinese will pay attention.

It's one thing to tread a legal gray line because the Chinese publishers don't get back to your emails, but it's another to not settle authorizations when you're actually able to speak with them. Part of the reason for so much drama these days is that WW bolstered its position to defend itself. Imagine if it hadn't? WW probably would've had to roll over with the first Qidian demand last May and the scene as we know it would look so much different now.

I absolutely disagree that we have inconsistent and haphazard quality of releases. We have some of the most passionate translators around, and it shows in the strength of their work. If you're referring to release schedules -- take a look at the publisher behind the titles that have grown inconsistent since last year. There's a reason why they don't get more resources/translators, and why those are the ones inconsistent. I'll give RTW as a concrete example. When we slowed down, our translator Roxerer had been contacted by the publisher.

 

I don't mean reliability or frequency of releases. I mean editing quality across what you offer. To take the first example that comes to mind - Grandmaster Strategist is edited to a much higher standard than Emperor's Domination, and Emperor's Domination itself varies in quality wildly over the course of the whole translation.

You can't really deny that's a thing.

I understand why that's a thing, and I don't blame you for it since it's a sound business decision with the market being as it is. It's just that majority of your ( and Volare's ) novels, are between 70 to 90% there in English standards, because spending time on that last bit of extra polish is just not worth it. And that was always the case.

 

Ahhh. I understand what you are saying. Let me ponder that with great ponderings for a moment. Although, keep in mind that for the most part Wuxiaworld is a de-centralized platform, which means individual translators are individually responsible for their own translations (as long as they meet a certain threshold). That means it's not really a Wuxiaworld 'business decision'.

 

When releases are free, you get what you pay for. My issue is when those same chapters are bundled up and offered as an e-book for $5-10...

 

There are a couple of things I want to point out here since you mentioned Emperor's Domination. I agree that there is a disparity between early chapters and newer chapters. However, the quality only became better, not a wild variation from chapter to chapter.

This is due to a couple of things. The creed of the early chapter is staying true to the raw, to a fault even. Rigid accuracy over readability for Western audience. Of course, we were amateurs as well and didn't take it as seriously since it was a hobby. As thing went on, the slider is shifted towards the right.

I'm sure many current readers can attest to Emperor being a careful translation even if it is a business endeavor now.

The second issue is comparing Emperor to TGS, a xuanhuan versus a novel that is more wuxia in nature. There is an inherent quality difference in the raw due to the sheer volume and release rate. A translation alone can't make up for this difference; one would require professional editing which will cost tens of thousands in order to trim the fat and repetition in the proses. This further exacerbates the perceived disparity in quality.

Ultimately, I do see your point but I'm irate at this unfair comparison and the vague statement of "varies in quality wildly over the course" when the quality has only improved. It is even more insulting when it came in this thread that insinuates the lowering of quality for monetization when I started ED almost two years ago and the scene wasn't this big or as profitable.

 

Uhn... Not that I think @HnM_Pete's point makes much sense, but... You just admitted that you don't have an actual team of editors to ensure a standard of quality across your whole company...

I don't read pretty much anything on your site because I don't like the genres you work on, so I can't really talk about your quality, but I assume it is pretty high since I never saw anyone complaining about it... Which means the OP's point definitely doesn't apply to WW.

At the same time, you just said that it is simply not worth the effort to have editors to assure a standard of quality on your whole team, you just make sure each individual translator has a high quality on their own... Which IMO, is perfectly okay, but you're proving his point at the same time.

 

While they don't have an editor team dedicated for their whole site, some novels/translators have editors.

 

You misunderstand. The standard of quality is expected, but how each translator does it/reaches it is his/her own responsibility. There are teams with multiple editors/proofreaders. There are teams that also have dedicated TLC'ers on top of editors/proofreaders. There are also 'teams' that have just a single translator (like myself) who use neither editors NOR proofreaders and do it all themselves. We leave it up to individual translators how they wish to get up to Wuxiaworld's standards, and we only intervene if they drop below that. Does that make more sense?

It's not about what is 'worth it' or not, it is that we recognize that translating (like writing) is an inherently creative process which each person will approach differently, and I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to try and enforce specific proofreaders on translators when I myself hate it when people touch my work and thus don't use proofreaders.

 

Sigh. So how exactly did this get twisted into "Peter shits on WW/Volare in general and Bao specifically"?

You know, I had been once accused ( rightfully ) of assuming the worst possible motivations when discussing something related to other translation group. Karma is a bitch, eh?

I never did argue that WW/Volare are financially motivated to lower the editing quality. ( emphasis on editing quality )

All I posited is that, as the situation stands, they have no financial incentive to raise it and every financial incentive not to do so ( or keep things as they are in simpler terms ). Those two positions are not the same.

I explicitly stated they are the best we have on the market in that regard ( again, talking of editing quality ) ( incidentally, this probably sells Kiseki's work at Radiant short, but meh. generalizations. ).

Because they are. But what they offer in this regard is not of an uniform, top-class standard, because there is ( for reasons unimportant to the argument ) no central editing team. It's kind of obvious that without an overarching editing department, some translating teams within WW/Volare will be better at editing than others.

There's this guy at Wuxiaworld. Deathblade. You may have heard of him. He creates top-quality translations. His writing, from a technical standpoint is top-notch, a 100%. There's also Ren, who writes very well but tends to make an occasional derp once every while. He loathes when other people touch his work, though so those derps stay unfixed making the chapters 99%. And then there are guys like Bao, who are competent, dedicated, and passionate, but not nearly as skilled. Their chapters are 80% simply because the English they write is not as good as that written by the Deathblade fellow. It doesn't make the work of those other guys bad ( it's still one of the best on the market ). It just makes it noticeably weaker than the best Wuxiaworld can offer. This is purely about the technical writing skill and execution; genres, plot, author skill, raw quality, none of this matters here. And as with any other skill some people will be better at it. ( And to make it clear, I don't even think Bao's team is the weakest in this regard from all under WW umbrella )

There is no financial incentive for Bao to get to Deathblade's level. There is no financial incentive for Wuxiaworld to get Bao's chapters to the same quality as Deathblade's. There's not even a financial incentive for Bao/Wuxiaworld to revisit those early chapters that by Bao's own admission are weaker than the rest of his translations. On the contrary, there are very solid reasons not to do any of that, though ( money, man-hours, effort required ).

And all this is cool.

I understand why that is the case. I know the novels are of "sufficient quality" ( let's say on average no less than 0.8 Deathblades ). Doesn't change the fact that that what they present varies making some of them a less enjoyable read.

And finally -

Emperor's Domination and Grandmaster Strategist were simply the first two sufficiently distinct novels that came to my mind when I needed an example for Ren. It could be any number of other pairings. I really don't get why have my words been taken so personally. Peace, love and stuff. I work on novels too, I know how much dedication it takes to release as much of good quality stuff as WW/Volare translators do.

 

when there demand there opportunity~ I don't really understand economy thing so my logic quite simple~
there people who care while most not really~
unbalance quite given cuz hmm translator motive, raw accessibility, popularity and trend or something like that~
as ren stated when it free there not much fuss but when you pay~ well chicken and crow flaying around~
Quality?
hah it all on translator or team choice~ beside no matter how good you try customize it, fast food and proper food are on different level~ although people choice tend to move on one side~
as for unbalance
nah maybe cuz it trending thing cuz various reason~

 

They are official publishers so I don't see how is it dirty to profit from unathorised translations of their work.
Qidan is good site. For several reasons :

It saves lots of time to look-up 30 different sites of fan translators to read something I like.
Also those sites often have problems and may go down for today, next day and so on.
Qidan is way more consistent with their site, releases of novels both new and old each week.
They pay their translators.

So it's like a guaranteed pay job ,unlike fan -translations were if the novel is shit ,you would not get much donations ,if any at all to sponsor your illegal adventure. The translator says something like :" I am tired ,had enough ,RL stuff" and dropped.
Money is big factor in this - if you pick shit novel like what many thought " Divine Grave / Shen Mu ", you really won't get donations at all.

One example : At one point in time ,I had to visit 3 different sites with different translations to read what I want. The experience made me drop the novel and wait for from chapter 1 translation.

You want to say "QIDAN ********" for stealing novels. But when there is an official, legal site for novels now ,why shouldn't the translators look to publish on Qidan ,WW or Gravity ?

I still remember when RWX was saying every single chapter of CD to "Please donate for our server costs" and other same kind of bullshit when a single sponsored CD chapter was atleast 40$ ? And there were atleast like 200 chapters sponsored ,just realise how much money he was making each day from the novel alone + ads.
They were people like " I'm leaving my 3 pc's on WW site before I go to work so they can profit more from ads".
HIS site was filled with bugs and SHIT TON OF ADS.Both of the good kind and bad bad kind.
Without adblock I never visited it.

I exposed his money-hungering bullshit on one chapter of LLS (on their site) ,next day he honestly surprised me with saying " No more donations" and something like that.
I don't think either Qidan or WW are in wrong.
Yes ,RWX has brought huge amount of readers and potential readers and spurred other fans to appear on the translation scene.
WW,along with Qidan are legal platforms that will continue bringing us new novels and constistent chapter releases.
Just like crunchyroll for animes.
Stop hating on Qidan seriously. There were plenty of reasons to hate on WW as well.

 

Well commercialization has pretty much, caused various trends to the web novel and light novel community. I will go off of my observations, recollecting these past years. And say that maybe the 1st wave of commercialization probably impacted the Japanese Novels, followed by Chinese novels and since we are heading that direction, Korean novels.

Again what lead me to this, is that my initial interests, were strictly into Japanese WN & LN, but with DMCA and various titles getting official publishing, either by Kadokawa or Yen press, etc. Many of the titles I enjoyed reading from Fan-translators, were removed, or forced into hiding. Baka-updates used to be a place i frequented once upon a time. Which lead me to Reddits light novel threads & novel translations, they opened my view on other translated novels.

So using the business model of Yen Press/ Kadokawa, they made their translations quite exclusive, changing the JN translating community and forcing translators to pick projects away from popular publishers.

In contrast to that, I believe the CN scene is actually moving in a good direction, with a balance from fan/hobby translators & paid translators. Also with the help or in some events disaster of Social media platforms, the community accepts a certain level of standard for their translated Chinese novels. From past experiences, we distinguish the various novels be readability. Amazingly enough there are people that can grasp a story via MTL, but as not everyone has that skill, translated novels need to flow and make sense.

Now since Korean Novels are beginning to gain more attention in recent times, they are progressing similarly like CN, in which there is currently a balance with translators, publishing platforms and the reading community.