The World Online Question?

Discussion in 'Novel Discussion' started by Cutter Masterson, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    My question is.

    How long would it take you to build a canon out in the middle of nowhere?

    Now here are the parameters. You are a lord and have a village with an average blacksmith. Your village is at most a couple of hours away from your iron mine and a river. You have access to modern day Earth internet. So you can find all formulas, techniques and diagrams of anything you need.

    In the novel The World Online (I’m at chapter 500). The MC is faced with this problem. I can see the game system regulating technology, but seriously why keep pushing forward with low tech. When switching to high tech would have work out so much better.
    I’m still trying to figure out what the author was talking about in regards to the MC steel factory.
    Personally I would have tested out a small Bessemer Mill setup. Than ramp it up. The most easiest way to make a canon would be to wield brass and maybe iron straps. You can stamp and roll out a small canon with a blacksmith. Hell you could cast a canon like a bell. You could also speed it up by boaring out brass canons with steel drill bits.
    Gunpowder is pretty simple. You only need three minerals to get it done charcoal, sulfur and potassium nitrate. Two he has, while sulfur could be a problem.

    I am looking at this MC and I can’t help but shake my head. Why didn’t he introduce cement. Why didn’t he introduce more technology.
    So irritating.

    So anyway my question still stands.
    How long would it take you to build a canon?

    -redacted-
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2019
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  2. earthdrake

    earthdrake Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read TWO in a while however as I recall the simulation was stopped not by artificial means but because they had to rediscover it as it where and don't remember but i think they said that there where small changes in the chemistry or something. Now with just having a diagram and a rough patch, sure i't wouldn't be that hard however you do have to solve a few issues. Also canon building may be found easily online but chemical metal formulas and how to approximate them without advance measuring elements could be close to impossible (try to find a formula that uses wrought iron) .
    First is the metal composition, that is chemistry and without an in-depth analysis you need to do by trial and error.
    Then the moulding, sure it's low tech and can easily be done, however afterwards you still have to inspect, polish and fix every posible mistake.
    The next step is again chemistry, how would you adjust the propellant formula (black powder) to the resistance of the canon and the distance for the ball to fly, what type of ammo does it use, etc. All questions that have to be tested on EACH batch.
    Now making a new batch of metal, pouring in 3 containers (let's say 3 to have enough testing of the material but could easily be more) this takes almost nothing, let it cool down takes longer depending on the mould and the method (natural cooling down would take most likely days, artificial cooling can take hours but not all metals will take it well), polish and fixing each prototype could take hours or weeks, find an appropriate propellant mix for each one, test the strength and resistance of each prototype could take again weeks. Don't remember how much it took in TWO but that kind of work could take years, with a bit of help and technological tips could still take a few months.
     
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  3. RayPeest

    RayPeest Beddhist

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    I would not be able to build the cheapest canon (camera) without any glass or plastics with all the knowledge in the world just because of the sheer amount of science involved over so many years
    Plus keep in mind that he has to teach old age technicians future tech while new age technicians have to use olden age materials meaning that there is a huge technological gap in order to build a cannon (weapon)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  4. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    You have some valid points.
    BUT
    As far as I know the composition of gunpowder is the same. As to composition of brass it is still the same. In TWO the MC has had the chance to use RL research and Online progress. So he had the time and chance. The system in TWO kept hot weapons stuck in an evolutionary tree with restrictions. But that is only following the traditional route. You could experiment to figure out how to do it. It would take a lot longer.
    I don’t see why they could not create a universal acknowledg measurements. In fact I’m pretty sure they do, but I would have to back check.
    As to a canon composition. Bells have been around since before 900AD. So it’s not like you have to be super advanced to build one. And it’s only a small change to build a bell into a canon.
    Your right about testing. Canons, bag charges and rounds need to be tested. They need a standard for everything. All canons set in the same mold. Bags of gunpowder need to be designed for set distance (Although with canons. Close is good enough). Such as every 200 ft set bag. Add another bag for longer distance. Rounds will also need to be uniformed.
    As to you problem of time.
    The MC has not made a single hot weapon (canons) in over two years! Even given your most longest timetable estimate. The MC should have had at least built a crude canon by now. I mean according to the novel the North Americans had canons for around a year already, but the MC still hasn’t developed gunpowder? Come on!
     
  5. earthdrake

    earthdrake Well-Known Member

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    Logically speaking all are valid points however there is one more thing to consider, something akin to reverse plot armor. One of the many reasons I don’t read TWO anymore is that it has a few issues with several things. Logically the canons should be ready within a year with some help, by the second year there shouldat least be field prototypes ready (the reincarnated lord also did this however don’t remember the timetable) however more than once there inconsistencies and strange things with everything (plus the way the npc gets named, used and forgotten).
    Still making cannons in a medieval environment still wouldn’t be easy, you could try using your body to approximate dimensions and weight however it still would be an approximation, add to that the lack of quality materials, a precise chemical formula and the author that wants that to happen and you get this. Also the first canons in history were not brass but basically lumps of iron with a hole (bombard style) however technically the first hand canons where chinese (the fire lance and another one that can’t recall the name) so technologically and historically they should have some degree of advantage to them however there is one big change that happened in history and the author is trying to correct with this. Historically thhe country of China was home to (please correct me if i’m wrong) about 60 different “tribes” that were later on united. This technological setback could be a wave to compensate and stop possible human wave attacks, or a way to justify them as the only way to fight back against the “invaders” (haven’t read so far but i can assure you that they will be invaded, get curve stomped and the mc will roll with his “better” canons and save the day.
     
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  6. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    I can’t really argue about a lot of your views. In fact I agree with many of them. The dam plot armors.
    As you said canons (iron or otherwise) we’re created way before anyone had a universal standard. The way to get past making identical equipment. Is to consistent use the same procedures over and over again.
    Canons-
    Use the same mold over and over. As to the composition. Just use the same source of metal. Copper to zinc 13:7. Make sure you use the same bucket. If you have to you can always fall back and use iron instead.
    Rounds-
    Use the same mold over and over again.
    Cloth bags-
    Make the same size bags. (Gunpowder bags). Find an agreeable set size bag that will fit in the canon. Then test fire the charge. After firing find how far it went. Than keep that as the standard bag. Add a bag to double the distance. Than progressively add more until you reach your desired distance.
    Gunpowder-
    Use the same bucket and use the same ratio. 75:15:10 ratio.

    You probably right about the timing of his canons. The author will more than likely have them right around when he needs them.

    I’m at chapter 530. And guess what one of the MC NPC rivals has canons. Several of them. This is ridiculous. The MC is the top lord in the world, but he’s behind in technology to other lords and now NPC. What’s worse these are NPC that live right next door. How the hell can he be the top of the world and of course his own country. With funding, support and resources that the whole world envy. But still can’t put together a canon?
     
  7. earthdrake

    earthdrake Well-Known Member

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    The bigger problem for mass production is the moulding in an ancient setting. To do the moulding first you have to carve a negative, something (usually wood) that has the same form as a cannon. Then you create the moulding by putting any plaster-like material (sand) in the form that will hold the canon, then pour, however because you can’t properly refine the material they won’t be the same every time, also every negative will be different from each other, add imperfections, different cooling speeds and the rest and you have with some luck a 10~15% standard margin of error (our industrial process has ~3% for general works, plastic/metal moulding, and about 0.5% or less for detailed work, bolts, screws, etc, this includes failed/broken parts, aberrants that need rework, flawed and parts with slight changes) (worked at renault and those were the standard margin of errors per part).
    Now properly the story has several issues since the star (making spaceships en-masse will be discovered by the population always, causing a mass migration is almost impossible with our resources) however if you can read without minding the small and not-so-small details is a decent work for kingdom building and one of the top 10 here in NU, if you want something better reincarnated lord is excellent and easily a top 3.
     
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  8. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Abused Witch

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    If you just want to make a primitive cannon, it doesn't take long at all. Of course, most people don't want a cannon to blow up in their faces, so it makes sense to be careful which lengthens the time it would take to build one. This is especially important if they have never built a cannon before. Ai-chan haven't read that story, but if they have never built a cannon before, it may take months or years before a cannon can be fielded.

    The length of time is less about forging the cannon and more about testing the cannons. You need to know the composition of the iron, the amount of gunpowder (even if you know the composition of the materials) and the distance the ball can reliably go. Making one on the go and immediately using it for battle is just not possible. You'd be better off making catapults that throw jars of lit naphta than to make a cannon if you've never made either.

    Early Japanese cannons were made of wood, tied together with rope and could only be used once before it becomes unsafe. If the aim is to create a throwaway one-use cannon, then a lord with absolute control over labour provided by 1000 peasants can probably make 100 short-ranged single use wooden cannons if each takes 10 person to make (assuming there are 4 carpenters, 2 ropers and 4 general labour) in a week. Making iron cannons would require a more involved calculation, as medieval era smithing were generally undertaken by craftsmen, with each workshop having differing levels of quality, skill and speed.
     
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  9. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    You know if you really want to purify Iron so much. Just build a blast furnace.