Spoiler To You Who Never Loved Me

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by asterylis, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. rebeluving

    rebeluving Member

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    sorry if this is a dumb question, but what’s OTEL?
     
  2. Le_Tired

    Le_Tired Well-Known Member

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    ***I edited my og post and bolded the titles in the paragraph above the third dropdown for anyone else who's confused about the acronyms

    OTEL is On the Emperor's Lap
     
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  3. karls

    karls Well-Known Member

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    im sorry my brain can't comprehend damn :'((( HWHDHWHW so rose is ruth????? rose is the girl he's looking for???? rose is the protagonist you're talking about??? rose was the one who went underground?????? I'M SORRY MY BRAIN FAILED TO UNDERSTAND A THING
     
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  4. river.wyles

    river.wyles Well-Known Member

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    The part about Glenn having a big D is only mentioned in the last chapter, so it's not like Rosa chose him because of it :blobpeek: but yeah, I get what you mean and totally agree :blobparty:
     
  5. Eccedentesiastdisha

    Eccedentesiastdisha wants to be Dani's bff

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    OH GOD! IS THERE EVEN A PERSON WHO LIKES THAT MF??!!
     
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  6. babayagu

    babayagu Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing inherently wrong with the first partner-last partner trope. Is it unrealistic? Possibly, but not all novels have to be realistic to be good. There are specific genres to look out for if this is your jam. It becomes shit the moment the author uses this trope to excuse blatant abuse and toxic relationships, without previous warning, or a dedicated page to explain that outside the creative realms, these type of dynamics are never romantic, or something to look for. The moment the trope is used as an excuse to promote the idea that only struggle breeds true love of a lifetime love, is the moment they step into dangerous territory.

    As somebody with mental illness, I personally don't want to read about a FL with explicit mental illnesses. If I ever want to read something like that, I purposely look for it. I personally want to escape whatever I find annoying in my daily life, representation or not. Obviously, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more diverse representation in literature and webtoon; just don't force that on all authors if they want their books to escape cancelling.

    As a plus size person, seeing a plus-size FL is nice, but once again, I don't really care for it that much. I wish I could have more to choose from, but I sure enjoy reading about drop-dead gorgeous women, with good ass figures- escapism is fun.

    Do I think this story is good? Not really, but so far, there was little evidence the ML was on the same level as other horrible ones I've read about. Both he and the FL couldn't communicate to save their lives; at one point, choosing to silently love and invest in someone becomes a personal choice that comes with consequences you've more or less acquiesced to. The spoilers didn't mention him putting his hands on her or abusing her mentally. He made use of her, sure, but not in that leecherous way we the novels you mentioned do.

    Sometimes, you just want to fawn over hot people being in love without thinking about morality, ethics etc. because it's fantasy. We all have things we love to read about but would hate to actually experience. Brainrot stories got their purpose.

    Also, you'd be surprised how many people in real life drop even their spouses for the 'one that got away'. Reddit is full of such stories.

    Overall, the point is that there is a time and place for it all. Take it up with the publishing companies to offer more opportunities to authors and artists straying from the good ole' cliches.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  7. llaladeriver

    llaladeriver Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot for the spoiler! cuz I know I'm not gonna read this story so reading spoilers is the best way for me:blobsweat: the ML seems to have no redeemable qualities and the story has angst tag if I'm not mistaken, so yea I'm not signed up for that

    oml- the ML in OTEL is a total sh!t douchebag
    My reply will be unrelated to this manhwa, but I couldn't let this slide cuz FINALLY someone said this. I'm so fed up with readers who defend the MLs in TWTWIWYWD and OTEL (I haven't read IDWTBL and WYD, but I've heard countless rants of how sh!tty the ML is in IDWTBL) why the f the FLs always be the ones who are "loving and forgiving"? I almost lost my sh!t when someone said like (in TWTWIWYWD) "the duke, FL's father, is at fault for all this. the ML is also the victim"

    I mean- bish? are you kidding me? he literally and practically verbally, emotionally and physically abused her and in OTEL, the ML literally sold her to slavery, she lost her tongue, and you think those bas****s are forgivable just because they didn't know that the FLs were their first love whatsoever? and I also read one comment in OTEL something like "at least he tried and healed her tongue" :blobsalute: lemme ask you, are you gonna thank the one who helps you up after tripping you off?

    I'm so done with this logic and mentality. I mean I'm quite picky in what I read per se (and I usually read western novels and just got into isekai manhwa and k-novels lately) but after seeing this kind of genres, I sometimes think like what's the point of this whole transmigration act? to get revenge, to make up some misunderstandings, or are they masoc*ist enough to play love with the same bichstard who chopped off their heads? (referred to the image at the previous comment)
     
  8. Hakucyou

    Hakucyou Well-Known Member

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    We all have things we love to read about but would hate to actually experience.


    Couldnt agree more.
    I didnt read the ones mentioned but simply because they dont flow my boat. Nothing against them.

    I think the rapid development of internet over the years made ppl concerned young readers may get the wrong idea from these "guilty pleasure" stories. There are things I read that would make me go, yea... this is so unrealistic, OR this is only happening in fiction. For me, I am fully aware something should and will just stay in fiction, and would never draw comparison with reality. The issue is, there seems to be an overwhelming concern that this is not the case. That readers may mix those concepts with real world. LIKE, when I read smut, there will be comments from time to time, reminding readers about the importance of consent and protection. Ppl really shouldnt be reading this if they needed the reminder...

    Since Im far too disconnected with the young generation, I cant say if this is a legit issue or not (though I do feel many are reading intense subject matter at a young age) but I can see why ppl call out toxic relationship in fiction. (in fear of some may think this is ok as long as its a happy ending).

    There are too many stories I read where I know its never ever acceptable in reality, but still read. Maybe cause of its drawing, or the characters, or just wanted to know how the story progresses. But in the end, I know its not real.
    I mean, the ecchi or smut catered to men are all pretty much criminal, unethical, and immoral, 10 times more offensive. If those material exist, I dont see why not for other types or genres.

    And I think there is a general underestimation of how many ppl secretly enjoys reading very unrealistic (and often wrong) material?
    Its really not the authors/stories, But the readers that should have a good sense of fake VS real before they go read some debatable or questionable "guilty pleasure"

    Also, you'd be surprised how many people in real life drop even their spouses for the 'one that got away'. Reddit is full of such stories

    The one that got away?are you refering to some true love found after marriage?

    Rose is Ruth. Ruth is just an alias she used to disguise as a man to join the army when she traveled back in time.

    To sum up
    FL meet ML when she traveled back in time. ML started to look for her ever since. But FL didnt know ML was looking for her (after she went back to present) and ML didnt know FL was the person she is looking for. ML only realized until FL commited suicide.
    It is unclear how the FL's underworld experience ties to the plot but Im guessing its just angst build up( she suffers for ML's sin in stead ).
    She was revived but died again from using too much of her power.
    Then long time passes, FL miraculously reincarnated (her soul shattered from her second death) and ends up with ML
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  9. Le_Tired

    Le_Tired Well-Known Member

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    ****Editing past blurbs on spoiler threads to condense content into dropdowns and labeling as discussion for anyone who wants to skip to spoilers

    I think you've said it best when you wrote:
    It becomes shit the moment the author uses this trope to excuse blatant abuse and toxic relationships, without previous warning, or a dedicated page to explain that outside the creative realms, these type of dynamics are never romantic, or something to look for. The moment the trope is used as an excuse to promote the idea that only struggle breeds true love of a lifetime love, is the moment they step into dangerous territory.

    Content we intake in our day to day lives can unconsciously influence our opinion (I don't believe anyone who says they're not influenced b/c they know better, how does one know where their biases start and ends?) and it's frustrating when MCs undergo the abused inflicted by their respective MLs only to end up with them later on b/c the MLs groveled for their true love, who they've been looking for for the past 10 yrs *cough*There Were Times When I Wish You Were Dead*cough*, to take them back. It's annoying that in the side stories for the damn novel, Karlois became a romantic and prepares a gift for her everyday (like reading a love poem for her or flowers) and she thinks back to the turbulent beginning of their marriage and smiles at this improvement. I'm trembling w/ anger just typing this. It's ok to forgive but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good choice to get back together w/ them.....

    I grew up witnessing my parents' toxic marriage yet I was still so impressionable as a teenager. My personal experience (not saying my individual experience applies to all who have gone through similar things as me) is that the worst of the worst became the standard - I thought that it was normal for people to forgive their partners for relationship-breaking-behavior (ex. cheating multiple times) b/c TRUE LOVE is indeed built on overcoming hardships and arguments that go on for days is just a display of HOW MUCH IN LOVE those two people are to keep fighting for each other (smh). This was further reinforced when I read shoujo like damn Kare Kano (the ML r*ped the MC and the MC comforts him by saying "it wasn't r*pe if I wanted it") and looking back I honestly wonder what was wrong w/ me.

    When these damn novels that propose these absurd settings where ML treats MC badly b/c of some misunderstanding but they live happily ever after, the overall message can come off as "relationships will have obstacles but what matters is how two people can go through them together, it is only when one can forgive someone for something unspeakable (ex. intimate partner violence like r*pe) that it becomes a testament to true love".

    I'm not trying to "force" anything on authors (please don't make assumptions). I try to avoid using generalizations or sweeping statements so I use wording like "I wish for novels to normalize", NOT "I wish 'ALL' novels are like 'this' ", it's just a request for more variety. A content's creative freedom is not necessarily restricted to the time period of the novel's setting; authors have been including the existence of birth control candies or tea ("the destroyer fell in love with me", "the evil lady's hero", "circumstances of switching bodies") and if implausible methods of contraception can be included then authors can put more effort into writing MCs who abandon their first loves or MCs/MLs who don't fit beauty standards (Bring the Love - ML has scarring on one side of his face from hydrochloric acid).

    I also don't think there's anything wrong w/ including characters w/ realistic mental illnesses ("The Sacrificial Princess", Abandoned Wife has a new husband", "What It Means To Be You"), but it's understandable if that could be triggering or upsetting to people who can personally relate to it - I just want to point out that we should also try to avoid using our personal experiences b/c an individual's feelings are not representative of the general population who shares the same trauma. Not saying that that is your intent when you wrote that but I'm sure readers will have diff. opinions on this topic and that shouldn't be discouraged.

    There's a chinese manhua "His Highness Don't Leave, I will Lose Weight for You!" (despite the misleading title, she didn't lose much weight but ML is still hopelessly smitten w/ her & losing weight isn't a priority in the story) and I like the MC from "I'll Save this Damn Family" b/c she's headstrong and decisive about her career and fighting for a position in her family but her size / beauty is not commented on much in the manhwa (ML develops a crush on her from the interactions they have, esp. when she sent letters to him while he was fighting in war).
    Btw, I read for escapism too but there are just some stories that are so mind bogglingly, unrealistic that it should get a warning sticker to tell younger readers that they shouldn't end up w/ someone who beats them, r*pes them, or verbally abuses them. Stories don't need to be an imitation of the real world and I don't just read stories that I deem "PC" or share my personal beliefs to have fun, however, when an author writes a flawless, forgiving, loyal female MC to complement a flawed, tragic, miserable POS that is the ML (*sigh* "Crows Like Shiny Things"), I can't help but be wary how that perpetuates the belief that a woman has to have numerous, positive characteristics to be loved while the ML can be JUST A HUMAN BEING to be likable to the female MC in the story.... People can say "YEA IT'S COMMON SENSE THAT THIS DUDE SUCKS DUMP HIM" but when someone is personally in a relationship w/ a sucky dude, it can be harder to let go. As silly as it is to say this, the influence of content w/ toxic love narratives shouldn't be underestimated (also, a lot of times unhealthy relationship dynamics based on the premise of fated love is just lazy writing).

    ......I did not write anything to criticize the qualities ML or the FL of "To You Who Never Loved Me". I also did not make any accusations about ML being abusive or sexually exploitative...... The MC in this story was not on the receiving end of physical / verbal / sexual abuse (at least to my knowledge and from what I can glean off the spoilers, I don't really know so I can't speak for it!) but I'm getting indigestion from the thought of a woman who stays despite her emotional needs being unfulfilled b/c LOVE. The purpose of my rant started from how I wished for novels to propose different storylines that deviate from the abundance of ride-and-die love stories like this one, aka normalize leaving first loves and moving on, then it evolved into gripes w/ multiple stories that normalized bigger issues like "MC endures unrelenting abuse of ML b/c LOVE". My frustration w/ this story stems from the storyline of a woman patiently waiting for a man to notice her existence and positive contributions to his life for her to feel she is of value but I didn't say that she was abused by the ML.
    I understand that stories don't have to follow morality, ethics, etc. b/c fantasy but the problem is that MANY stories do not follow it and i don't think there's a problem w/ wanting stories that do. I am not criticizing people for choosing to read novels I don't particularly like or agree w/ (guilty pleasures exist, I still read sh** novels from time to time but I limit for concern on how it can start to warp my perspective), I'm concerned w/ what the readers will interpret as the message of a story, esp. when they're young and lack personal life experiences to reference to. Stories that romanticize the hardships of FIRST LOVE can make it hard for people IRL to part an unhealthy relationship and recognize when it's time to walk away.

    I'm just allowed to complain about a lack of diversity....? I don't think there's anything wrong w/ constructive criticism if the message is to point out the power of subliminal messaging. It would be a diff. issue if this was a generalized complaint that did not specify the reasons why I'm dissatisfied w/ certain historical, romance manhwas, lacked the proposal of alternate solutions, and was just an all out barrage of "ML IS A SUCKY B*STARD" or w/e.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  10. Nefroza

    Nefroza Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you all completely !!!! You guys should give a try to a manhwa called Ebony it's so realistic and is my favourite!!! It's basically shown how women grow in power in old times!!
    You can read Sword Of Falcon it was so refreshing and such a beautiful story!!
     
  11. babayagu

    babayagu Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't that I don't agree with your points - it's just that I didn't agree with the way you framed it, along with the place you posted it.

    Your first post made it seem as if it was the lack of options that was the issue, instead of the unchecked abuse. I know you probably didn't intend to make it seem like so, but I wanted to point it out as well. Blatant abusive relationship were portrayed in reverse harem situations as well, for example.

    The discussion about how literature influences people is a slippery slope that is still heavily debated in numerous areas of expertise, with no consensus. I'm not gonna speak on it, but I will point out that most webtoons have varying age restrictions that are often not respected by the readers, mainly due to piracy and the uploading of them on 3rd party sites that don't bother with enforcing them. Also, at some point, personal responsibility intervenes. Society can and should make readily available material to combat whatever influence left at the discretion of the public (such as social essays) and people should have a habit of introspection and research instilled since young in them, but overall, it is our responsibility to be critical about the content we consume and interact with. Ratings should be revised and upgraded, perhaps.

    Most importantly, I just don't think this was the time and place to write this, especially since this was a mild story as far as toxic relationships go. There are designated forums where general opinions are welcome and encouraged. Even if you didn't mean for it to come off this way, your original post made it seem like this was your last drop, and almost virtue signaling. Few people come to spoiler threads for general lessons on morality that doesn't directly pertain to the characters' actions.

    You make some very good points, most of which I agree with. I just don't agrre with the way you framed them, and the place you posted them. This is going to be my last addition to this discussion as this isn't the place to hold this type of talk, but my dms are always open if you wish to continue it.
     
  12. Deleted member 282232

    Deleted member 282232 Guest

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    All that love is okay but MC comes off to me as a little bit... stupid.
     
  13. beazacha

    beazacha Well-Known Member

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    Ty for the spoilers guys, hard pass on this one
     
  14. llaladeriver

    llaladeriver Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more, idk if Ebony is popular among international fans cuz I rarely see anyone making a post about that story. but Ebony is a gem, it has some similarities to Your Eternal Lies (no manhwa) but I'd say YEL is the tragic version of Ebony. they both depict the misogyny as its finest and the crappy kingdoms where the states and laws don't give a f to women
     
  15. Daruchini elachi

    Daruchini elachi Active Member

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    I came here for spoilers:blobpopcorn:,but saw a bunch of guardians are doing meeting here about manhua and mahwa world :blobangery: like why did i wasted my times reading opinions..i am here for spoilers..:mad:
     
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  16. booho

    booho Well-Known Member

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    Ebony have a good story but not commercial. Like documentary vs box office
     
  17. Missy2894

    Missy2894 Well-Known Member

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    Well after read some spoilers, i decided not to continue
    I know not every story ends up in happy ending, it is very realistic. But at least we learn something valuable. This novel is kind of novel that will only left shit on my face at the end of the day
    i am a person who concern about what story i read
    The kind of story that shows how bad ML/MC is something "okay" as long there is character development along the way.
    BUT, if along the story there is NO such thing, a.k.a they are being bastard until the end, what value do i get from the story then???
    No character development, no redemption, no life lesson, so why bother read those trash novel guys? Reader get nothing but frustration
    Only emotional rollercoaster all until the end??? Come on, life is already full of those rollercoasters, reading novel is "sweet escape" to entertain us while living this life
    That is sick man! We look for something to entertain us but end up getting more depressed
    That kind of novel which only left bitter taste after reading, no statisfaction, no lesson learned, in the end just make me think why in the world do i WASTE my precious time reading the story in the first place???
    Novels supposed to be something we enjoy, not something that make us feel miserable
    I don't know about other people, but i really, really hate the character like ML in the story
    So in the end he regret doing all those things to FL JUST BECAUSE he found out that she is the one he is looking for??? Not because he realize that she doesn't deserved to be treated that way in the first place???
    Such manipulative bastard who plays with people's emotion doesn't even have the right to regret
    This kind of bastard doesn't deserve a love from reader
    He is an arrogant man that think the one that deserve kindness in the world is the "love of his live", but he has the right to harassed other people just because they are not important for him. Of course there is a degree of people importance in our life. But doesn't mean we have the right to abused someone's life. Fucking asshole!
    That cheeky bastard doesn't even deserved title as male protagonist
    His trashy attitude is just the same as all a mafia who sell drugs and making people's life miserable with narcotics but at the same time he makes money for his family, he is rich, he is known as a loving father for his children, he loves his family with all his heart. Yes, he has happy life on other people's misery
    Yeah, it is ok if other people die by my hands, but no one can touch those who is precious to me
    Please people, don't worship this kind of ML, and i suggest don't even read that kind of novel who give spotlight to that kind of character
     
  18. Nefroza

    Nefroza Well-Known Member

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    I will try Your Eternal Lies if it is something like Ebony!!!! It is this book right - https://www.novelupdates.com/series/your-eternal-lies/
    Do you have a full English version for the this NU I think they don't have complete chapters!
     
  19. Annan_Tess

    Annan_Tess Member

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    What mc died? Why though

    So this story contain, a mc (rose) sacrifice a lot just for the ml ( micheal)..?
     
  20. AMNigma

    AMNigma Well-Known Member

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    So what I'm getting is that our consensus is that the ML is part of the Trash ML Club and our MC was gaslit. Got it. Readying my walls with pillows so my phone doesn't get destroyed when I throw it out of frustration again.
     
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