Discussion Important Elements/Tropes/Events for a Kingdom Building Novel Genre

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by pandadodod, May 16, 2019.

  1. pandadodod

    pandadodod Active Member

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    What are your thoughts on what are the important and defining elements/tropes/events for an enjoyable kingdom building/nation founding WN or LN?

    For example in Realist Hero, we have Economic reform, talent and ally pooling among others.
    In Lazy Dungeon Master, we have creating a place from ground up, founding it and populating it with people and oh, defending it from threats (if my memory serves me right?).

    Specifically, what element of kingdom building genre tingles your mind most? I would be gladder is you can specify examples of these tropes in a novel you have read.
     
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  2. Nom de Plume

    Nom de Plume [Shio’s Disciple] [True Villain] [Equip: Gunblade] Novel Updates Staff

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    Pacing is very important. This type of novel struggles with pacing the most thanks to transitions from kingdom building to action (warfare?) and back.
     
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  3. Warlock Of The Void

    Warlock Of The Void Well-Known Member

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    A realistic portrayal of the enemies and their motivation ,methods like in Experimental Log of the Crazy Lich and When A Mage Revolts
    Both of them have a very reasonable characters development for both the MC and his enemies. None of them r just 2D bad guys with no brains
    Also , betrayal , corruption r also important like in I guess World Domination
    But , the one thing that is very Very important ,and no novel seems to get it right , is how those reforms of economic and social development get implemented and conceived by the population and the problems that occur with it .
    People forget that just because an idea is good and most of the chinks have been worked out for it , it WILL face problems unique to that particular population and society. U can't just expect people to change their way of living and not have any backlash/problems prop up that according to u shouldn't have existed.
    For example, and this is a common trope, Slavery , very bad , no I don't support it and yes it should be abolished But u get that in our own world it took Abraham Lincoln Years to abolish it even when people were enlightened enough and there weren't possible Walking Weapons Of Mass Destruction ( People with high magic/chi/QI/whatever) who don't want to abolish it working against it, to The Higher Class that would be perceived as an attack and they will retaliate.
    And if u want a milder example then Bank , a fine economic reform , promotes development , good safe choice , except how do solve the problems of credentials in a world where PAPER is A LUXURY
     
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  4. Kalto

    Kalto [ Somewhat meticulous ]

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    A ruthless, cunning protagonist that isn't weak and shows vulnerabilities especially if they are involved in somesort of romance (and those harems :cautious:)but anyway, I recommend 'Goblin Kingdom'
     
  5. pandadodod

    pandadodod Active Member

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    Warlock, (EDIT: tagged someone else by accident) I agree with you though... that major implementations of new (supposedly great changing stuff) are usually presented in novels with the populace generally going with the flow. When in reality habits and way of life and status quo are hard to change...
     
  6. Viken

    Viken Well-Known Member

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    That's a vast subject in and of itself, you know. Royalties the world over had to be taught from a young age in order to develop the skills and amass the knowledge necessary to rule and govern a country. Even today political dynasties hold the strictest standards in education as well.

    That said, the situations are mostly the same. It all comes down to people. People have needs: food, shelter, security, prosperity. Then people have wants: fame, fortune, glory, sexual satisfaction. And finally people have ambitions: power, prestige, recognition.

    These are the things that people will strive for, work for, scheme for. It doesn't matter what style of civilization, government, military or family that is involved. Even the humblest of people want to be able to make a good living, after all. Those with more ambitions will push upward and forward with even more vigor.

    Thus settling these things are the main responsibility of any kingdom. At the same time this is influenced by culture. The culture of any group of people dictates their common responses both internally and externally. A comparative example would be between Ancient Egypt and Ancient China.

    In Ancient China, the nobles were chosen based upon the power and prestige of any number of family clans. Under them were what western societies would consider commoners, but they were treated more like serfs. They owed both work services but also taxes in grains or goods and lived in relative poverty. At the same time the merchant class was actually considered blood sucking insects, disdained by the nobles even while they heavily taxed those who worked in trade.

    Ancient Egypt on the other hand was more more authoritarian, in a singular sense. While there was some politicking between the noble families, they all owed allegiance underneath the Pharaoh, whom also acted as the religious head. Even compared to the Chinese Emperors, the Pharaoh held almost absolute power. At the same time the merchant class was much more developed. Having wealth offered opportunities that allowed upward movement in government and power. We have actual records of this, and it held true through most if not all of Egypt's history. On the other hand, we don't really understand how the commoners/peasants were involved culturally.

    We all know that the great building projects of Egypts' used massive amounts of manpower and resources, and while there is some indication of Pharaoh's effectively drafting in the commoners to work on these, we cannot tell who was forced labor, slaves, or actually working men that were effectively hired. On the other hand we do know that these people were paid a wage in grain, bread, and beer. These workers camps also had doctors, dentists, and priests that provided services as well.

    Rather or not they were slaves or just a form of enforced workforce is still a mystery and may always be. But this shows a stark contrast between different cultures and governments. It also exposes that different groups of people will have different defining elements to their kingdoms and societies. In a way this is reflected in popular kingdom building novels. Lol.

    Realist Hero is nice in this way, although it doesn't go too much into the gritty details. After all, not everyone can stomach reading through a bunch of expense reports. :p

    And now I'm done ranting~
     
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  7. Kawalan

    Kawalan Active Member

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    A protagonist that needs an army, OP MC that can obliterate everything with all the skills they have has no need for a kingdom nor allies. Yep, I just don't like OP MCs
     
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  8. LesserSarcasm

    LesserSarcasm Well-Known Member

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    an interesting thing on rulers that's actually useful to your answer
     
  9. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction

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    OP MC is not need for kingdome building they likely just tur the responsibility to other person , at most they become like Guardian Deity for the country
     
  10. Warlock Of The Void

    Warlock Of The Void Well-Known Member

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    Another thing that @Viken pointed out , different cultures react differently, and conquest or building of Kingdoms depends on it . Another thing that Kingdom Building novels should have or more like shouldn't is high power levels , It makes absolutely no sense if u have a person who can destroy an army of Kingdom to be able to rule by monarchy , this is actually a sore spot that I find in most novels not just Kingdom building ones , that those in power r not educated enough to understand that with their power, position, authority comes a Giant Target on their backs . Because Not Only would other families of similar status be after them but any ambitious person who wants more would be too , now I want u to imagine what would happen if the world has possibilities of people having enough power to destroy a country and I am Not saying that anyone with that kind of power would want to rule ( there is more of a chance they wouldn't want to and wouldn't care who rules ) but those who do won't listen to anyone and do what they want, so if they want authority they would target the big families not the common people.
     
  11. listener

    listener ##################

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    if we talk kingdom building in isekai world, we must talk about magic......
    I really hate when they use science power to make a gun, nuclear weapons, and make a fun of magic.
    And A teenager who can build gun and military weapon, even build a nuclear after reading a wiki, it's impossible, why they became a genius after the dead
     
  12. LesserSarcasm

    LesserSarcasm Well-Known Member

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    a gun isn't really that hard, honestly its simply a focused explosion with shrapnel in front of the explosion, the barrel just needs to be enough to contain the explosion without blowing up in your face / body etc. Gun powder is pretty easy to make just need to experiment a bit with the percentages for the best burn ratio for what you using.
    A nuclear bomb well that is both easy and hard. the easy part is achieving critical mass the hard part is enrichment of the nuclear material, but if you have magic why not just direct mass to energy conversion much more efficient and pretty much does the same thing explosion wise without all the nasty radiation side effects.
     
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  13. listener

    listener ##################

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    in theory it's easy after all:blobpopcorn_two:
     
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  14. LesserSarcasm

    LesserSarcasm Well-Known Member

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    nope get enough plutonium together and it will go critical-mass on its own, the hard part is making the plutonium then handling said plutonium as first you need a nuclear reactor to be able to deuteron bombardment of uranium-238, but then again plutonium is one of the more toxic materials known to man make a nice piece of jewellery out of it and send it to enemy kings. who needs bombs. Let them think they are cursed with ghosts and spirits / gods hates then when really its just the alpha, beta gamma radiation given off by the decay of the unstable element.
     
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  15. listener

    listener ##################

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    yeah, please tell that to mr kim, he will love it, maybe he will hire you.:blob_grin:

    Don't be mad okay, i just joking:blobokhand:
     
  16. LesserSarcasm

    LesserSarcasm Well-Known Member

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    i did say the hard part was making it, hes stuck on this part too.
     
  17. listener

    listener ##################

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    I'm sorry, for you know, i have a low scores at chemistry and physics class.... even you explained it to me, i won't understand it. :sweating_profusely:
     
  18. ToastedRossi

    ToastedRossi Well-Known Member

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    I love kingdom building stories, and I'm now sure that the absolute most important thing about them is that they have to be true. If these stories feel fake, the beginning part can still be entertaining, but that will eventually peter out and the story becomes stale. Done properly, it's very different. The stories tend to get better and better, and if they're true, then they may even aspire to emotional resonance.