Discussion Is this ok or not?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by CDLevit, Aug 2, 2016.

?

Is this the right thing for a teacher to do?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Maybe

  4. Don't know

  5. Depends

  6. Other answer (mention it)

  7. Don't care

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. CDLevit

    CDLevit Aspiring water; spark of cynicism; Em&es explorer.

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    Quoting from Quora- http://qr.ae/1BDJRW :

    (when I student-taught, one of the pupils was a *real* pisser, and after four weeks of hazing, the vice principal started conspiring to find reasons to remove him from the class. I was a shocked but willing participant. You’d be stunned how one or two students’ presence or absence can change the behavior of the entire class.)
    I can't agree, nor am I willing to agree with that teacher. The fact that he, as a teacher failed to teach a student not only theory but actual stuff: morals and good examples gives me the impression that he didn't understand what being a teeneger means, nor was well versed with the teaching methods. You don't have to 'set up' a student. Why? Because there are other ways to manage your classroom, students and their problems. He could talk with him, apply the rules, call his parents and so on.

    His way of doing things is a big NO from my part. He failed as a teacher. He abandoned his student.

    Now, I know that that poster didn't describe the whole situation but, in any case, that's not the right thing to do and there's no justification. A teacher is put there to teach all students, to be a model and..

    Other opinions?
     
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  2. TheZephyrStorm

    TheZephyrStorm Rock God

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    I believe a teacher should put an equal effort on all their students and try to the best of their ability to teach. If this teacher decided to basically turn their back on their student, he/she has failed being a teacher. If I read that quote correctly and the principle is the one who decided to conspire against a student, that principal is truly the worst at that school.
     
  3. Kaizoku_kc

    Kaizoku_kc Well-Known Member

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    how old is the student? how is his mental condition?
     
  4. Ogami-kun

    Ogami-kun 『Blue Shadow ensnaring demons』『FA sect disciple』

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    although he was wrong, morals should be principally taught in the family; you can't teach a violent bully that learned violence from his father to help fellow students with their homework...
     
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  5. Wrestleroh

    Wrestleroh Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that it isn't right. Especially making the child feel left out and potentially scarring them mentally like that.
     
  6. NGCleric

    NGCleric Well-Known Member

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    Having worked in classrooms, I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to remove certain students from it. It just makes everyone else perform better. We do remove problem kids from the class by transferring them to another class (same material, different classmates). Having said that, we usually look into other ways to also help the problem student (we don't expel students). Our primary method is use of a contract (they don't get electives for that day if they have poor behavior). I also want to point out that " He could talk with him, apply the rules, call his parents and so on " doesn't always work. We've done this with some students and they literally did not care. Sometimes, they would actually be even worse. We always want to say "we'll do everything we can to help every student become the best they can be," and while this is true, if the student doesn't try on their end, then there is nothing we can (legally) do except move them around to see if a different environment helps.
    Also, the quote doesn't specify if they removed the student from the school entirely, or transferred to a different classroom.
    As a side note, I often see people say that teachers are suppose to teach morals, but I always thought that was the primarily the job of the family (mine worked that way). I have no issue with teachers teaching morals, just wonder why they get all the blame and not the family.

    Edit: I just remembered an event where we were talking with a particular student about his lousy performance. It was a parent teacher conference, so it was all of his teachers and his mother. We were all trying to get him to perform better, and he actually broke down into tears saying he would try harder. Then he didn't. At all. He actually refused to improve because he thought that he could force our hands to let him do what he wanted. All the talking and convincing in the world means nothing if the student doesn't want to.
    I also want to point out the consequences of actions need to be learned. This is a really important life skill that is often overlooked because it hurts feelings. If your actions lead you to being ashamed of yourself (for bad behavior), then maybe change how you act. My school does not publicly shame students, but we will call you out on your behavior (if this was in public, then don't be surprised when the teacher turns around and calls you out on it).
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
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  7. stellarsohye

    stellarsohye ☆Drunk Oneesan☆ 『Civil Servant』

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    Maybe he's wrong but there's just some kids that you will never get through even if you go "Onizuka"-ing on them.
    Morals should start with the family in the first place.
     
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  8. Greedyspree

    Greedyspree 『Exile within the back room』

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    Thank you for this, I really wish more people would understand this. Morals is not something a school should be educating YOUR CHILDREN about. Your children should be taught by you. School is for basic education, morals are from family. There is no Morals course in public schooling.
     
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  9. Lithit

    Lithit Desu~'s Little Griffin

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    The problem with this is how the teacher handled it. I remember when i was younger there were some guys in my class that just made everyone drop their IQ, not that they were being singled out, but that their mere presence incited aggression in others they would then funnel towards authority.

    It would have been better if they met their parents, or had them transferred to a class of troublemakers or something, but as someone who has been a high school teacher, trust me when i say there somepeople who will make you consider murder

    Something i wold like to add, in my experience as a teacher 80% there is a bad apple it's not the fault of the teachers, but the fault of the students. You can teach them all you want, guide them in every way, tell their parents when they do wrong and do you know what happens in the end F**king nothing.

    I don't mean to get angry, but the concept of blaming a teacher every time a student fails has always irked me incredibly. Really most times it's the parents who don't bother to teach their children morals and who do nothing (or next to nothing) about their child's bad behaviour
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
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  10. saffu

    saffu dead

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    I was in this exact same situation in primary school, lol.
     
  11. Yue Er

    Yue Er Well-Known Member

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    Because in America everything I say is right, and everything everyone else says is wrong. Did you know that putting children in a corner on time out away from everyone is considered neglect and abuse? Parents blame teachers for their children's failing grades. No one ever looks at themselves.
     
  12. v-rain

    v-rain Active Member

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    ok realistically the teacher goes to teach, and not to be the nanny or psychologist of the children
    if there is a problem kid that impede him to teach to the rest of the class is ok (this is not an anime or japan)
    the job of the teacher is to teach, and there a lot of kids that no matter how much you tell then to behave, they will not listen.
     
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  13. Greedyspree

    Greedyspree 『Exile within the back room』

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    Although I will admit there are many cases in which teachers do have troubles. This is far too true. Its so much easier to blame others, than to blame yourself for piss poor parenting.
     
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  14. Aternus

    Aternus Well-Known Member

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    No child left behind was one of the worst educational decsions of all time.

    This is the opoosite, i like this.
     
  15. MarSprite

    MarSprite <Impossible to Gauge>

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    Morals are learned from every role model a child encounters. The teacher is one of them, and it is the parent's responsibility to ensure that their children have positive role models to be influenced by. So if the teacher is not a good role model, it is the parent's job to protect their child from that teacher. The teachers job description probably doesn't include 'role model' but they should be aware that they are. It is a shame that teacher never learned to curb their juvenile behavior.

    Given an alternative, I would not allow my child to go to a class in which I was aware of a teacher behaving in such a fashion. Perhaps if there were no alternatives, I might try to use it as an opportunity to teach my child that not everyone in a position of authority is a good target to emulate.
     
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  16. mayy

    mayy Well-Known Member

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    I mean, it's hard to say one way or another without more info in the situation. We don't know what happened in the month that led to this action. We don't know that no one tried to intervene or help before taking more drastic actions.

    Like others have said, even if the teacher can and often does act as a role model, the student also has to want to learn from them.
     
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  17. Guradu Gilgida

    Guradu Gilgida 【Gentleman】【Tembikar Demon】

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    Actually, it happened in everywhere, not only America. It's human nature. It's also happened in this forum.
     
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  18. LittleFox21

    LittleFox21 The Soon-to-be famous Nyatsune

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    since we don't know the circumstances, i just want to state my own opinion and not to criticize anything as i am neither a professional nor a parent.
    based on the info provided, we know that this particular student had been a troublemaker for a long time, given the statement "*real* pisser" and the fact that even vice principal planned, for several weeks, a controversial way to make the class atmosphere better. we can not exempt the possibility that the teachers and staffs had already tried so many different approaches to fix this particular student, so in this case a drastic measure was taken.
    note that it was stated " the vice principal started conspiring to find reasons to remove him from the class" which, in my view, was not a forceful and violent way to deal.
    this may not be agreeable with many, but we do not know the actual happenings and it was not stated that the student was expelled or harmed. we can assume that the student was merely 'got rid from his/her class' and the problematic class was at least had its atmosphere improved.
     
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  19. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Abused Witch

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    As a former teacher, I can sympathize with the teacher, but I also believe students shouldn't be abandoned.

    However, I do not know the full story, nor do I know the circumstances involved. Therefore, I will not deliver judgement on the teacher or the vice principal.

    In the case of my school, and every public school in my country, you have 30-40 students in each class. In the case of rural schools with high population, it's even worse. Every single day, a teacher is expected to teach at least 6 classes for 45 minutes (back in my day, I don't remember if it's still the same) per session. Every day there will be several double sessions, so that's 1 h 30 mins for one, two or three classes, for one day, not including the single sessions. Most people will think teaching is all teachers do, the rest of the time they sit in their office marking papers, right?

    Absolutely wrong. Marking papers doesn't even count as 5% of what they do at school. Every single day, teachers have to do lesson plan for every single class they're responsible for. This does not at all include the classes that they have to take over due to a teacher suffering illness or unforeseen circumstances. Every single day, they have to act out what they wrote in their lesson plans and time it so that it isn't too short or too long or too boring.

    Every single day, there's the preclass staff meeting. That's where the head teacher or the principle tell you what's going to happen today, tomorrow or what they're expecting you to do. This means you have to come to school at least an hour in advance or in the case of the morning session, you have to stay for another hour after school, unless you have to pick up your children from another school, of which you're excused. You are not paid for attending these meetings. You are working for free.

    Now what about the replacement classes? Sometimes you're asked to take over a class you have absolutely no idea how to proceed. So you end up doing a quick study on the subject beforehand. Then when you go to class, you taught based on what you understand. You don't have a lesson plan here. You do not know what to teach or how to teach. You have to wing it, and unless you have experience at winging things, your lesson will be dull and flawed.

    The biggest problem is, you will have to handle data entry. It is required by the ministry. So when exactly would you have the time to take care of a wayward student? All of our teachers take their work back home. So they're not working 12 hours a day, they're working 18 hours a day. That alone is an abuse of manpower.

    Now what about Saturdays or Sundays? If you're called to work, you'll have to work too. Your monthly wage is fixed, you're not paid overtime for coming to school for a meeting on a Saturday. If your computer doesn't have internet connectivity at home, you have to come to school on the weekends to complete your data entry, of 240 students.

    Imagine this timetable: (sorry Malaysians, it's been years, can't remember exactly how the timetable goes)
    7.45 Phys Ed
    8.30 Phys Ed
    9.15 History
    9.00 Malay
    9.45 Malay
    10.30 Break
    11.15 Moral Studies
    12.00 Chemistry
    12.45 Geography
    1.30 End School Day

    Assume you teach Malay, does that mean Malay is the only thing you teach that day? No. You will be expected to take over some other classes. You could end up teaching Chemistry in this class today, and you have no chemistry qualification, so you don't know what to do.

    The times you're not teaching? You're not idle, you're writing lesson plans, preparing teaching aids, marking papers, handling teacher complains and doing data entry. At the end of the day at 1.30, does that mean teachers go home? No. You have a meeting from 1.30 to 2.30. You are not paid overtime, so don't bother asking. Sometimes, you'd stay in school, because you haven't finished data entry yet. Sometimes you'd stay in school, because for some reason, the school thought some students need extra lessons, so they asked you to stay until 5pm. Now, don't equate this with office workers. As teacher, you have to handle 240 different people if we don't count the classes you're taking over, most of which have not yet learned tact or self-restrain. Add to that, the lesson plans, teaching aids creation, the data entry which never seems to end and the constant complains from parents which for some reason never seems to thing that they're the actual problem. Now, add also the time that you have to work at home to provide quality education, or the best education you can give with what you have to work with.

    You can say that a teacher is to blame here, but have you worked as a teacher? Do you understand that teachers are people who continuously sacrifice themselves to doing their best for the students? If a student willingly destroys the chemistry of the class, what exactly do you expect teachers to do? Sacrifice even more? Teachers are people too. We hear company executives, salesman, office worker, retail managers flip out often. Are teachers so godly they're not allowed to flip out?

    Don't blame the teachers. Blame the ministry for their fuckups and the parents for not raising their children well. Teachers are paid to work, they're not charity workers. Teachers have a life too.

    What do people think we are? Robots? Gods? Wizards? Magical Robotic Gods?

    In Malay, we have a saying, "Guru adalah lilin yang membakar diri," translated into, "Teachers are the candle that constantly burn themselves". And for what? To give light. It is a dim light, but those who really wants to better themselves will use that light. Those who don't will ridicule the weak light as useless. It's just how things go. Teachers do their best, pupils decide if they want to take up that offer.

    p/s: Okay, that was a long rant. My point is, while teachers try their best, sometimes you just have to cut your losses. The quote there doesn't mention what actually needs to be mentioned, such as the attempts made previously, the severity of the delinquent and the circumstances that influence the delinquent whether internal or external. As such, it is too high handed to pass judgement on the teacher or the vice principal.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
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  20. NaoSou

    NaoSou Well-Known Member

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    I am not gonna sit here and pretentiously say "Teachers should never abandon a student!" or "If a student fails, then the teacher failed!", "Every student can be taught".

    Please. Spare me. I think people have been spoiled by movies. You see teachers in movies reaching out and getting through troubled students, and they suddenly make a comback in life and reveal that under their exterior they were actually briilliant. That is pretty. It is great. But it isn't real.

    Guess what, some people are legitimately shit. Teens aren't special creatures that can always be good if nurtured correctly. Some people are absolute garbage that ENJOY being jerks. It is not the teachers fault. Some people not only CAN'T be "repaired", a lot of them don't even WANT to.

    Some students just want to disrupt the class. Some students don't care about studying, no matter how much the parents, friends or teachers try. Sure, some people CAN'T be good students, no matter how hard they try. But some people DON'T WANT to. It is the big difference between CAN'T and WANT.

    If, as a teacher, you have a whole class of students trying to learn and just one guy stopping the whole thing from happen, then you should have the class's best interest in mind. The needs of one does't not prevail the needs of many.

    Sure, setting him up and hazing is a bit much, but I do think that some people are beyond saving and should be cut off from a group if they are being cancerous (I.E, disrupting the entire group without adding anything positive to it on purpose). I don't see anything wrong with getting rid of a student, through the use of the proper channels and methods, if they are being a detriment to a class and are a repeat offender.

    I mean, come on mate. Life isn't a fairytale. If you went to school, if you went to college, if you have a job with coworkers, you KNOW that some people are just unrepenting raging dicks. And they enjoy it.

    This whole "No child left behind" or "Everyone can be good if someone helps" is so incredibly naive.
     
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