Oh ho! Now shoes on the other foot! How does it feel? The tainted bleeding of effort and time leaking out in a fruitless waste? You still ignore the salient points of the other posters. Go on quora, and ask Allie, what she meant https://www.quora.com/profile/Allie-Warfel It is far more likely that when she said set up she was referring to the principle making the decision to go zero tolerance after weeks of "second chances" And what is with this pig ignorant view of children? Children sure as hell understand consequences. Expecially after 5 or 6 or so. I can tell my nieces and nephews of that age to not do something or else, and they don't do it. The flaw of course is if we follow you advice and don't follow through with the established consequences of action. Resulting in spoiled children who assume that they can do anything they want because there is no real consequences
Look dude... I told you and a lot of people here understand that doing the entrapment thing on a student is not right... But, we have been telling you the rationalizations behind the choices, because of lack of legislation and tools to deal with students who do not respond to anything. You stick to your principles yes, but understand that I and even others keep telling you that your opinion even though it has merits in one way, also fails your own principles in the other choice as well... You also don't make a assertions without trying to know the full situation. Which is what most here are trying to correct, you don't even know enough to make a good assertion. Were you there? No... Do we have enough information to judge if what he did was right or wrong, not completely. Not all situations end well, and sometimes with that is available "the ends do justify the means." Because tools have not been made to allow the person the flexibility to get the wanted result. Like we keep telling you, is it okay? No... Is it going to continue to happen... Yes, teachers are not perfect, and students aren't either... Do we want a perfect system... You have no idea how much teacher's would want one... Can we get a perfect system, it's still a massive work in progress... Also, after reading it more carefully it says he was a student-teacher at the time... It was the VP who made the determination to make efforts to remove the kid from the classroom... He was a willing participant, yes. You could even fault the teacher for being inexperienced at the time, which could be true also. So all student-teachers have to be perfect the day they come out of school... That would fix everything right? I made those example possible alternatives I didn't check if they worked on the fly which is why I gave the other alternative forcing the kid's parent's to accompany them to school for a week if the physical thing was too much. What idea's have you tried to forward...? Look it's obvious you are passionate in the subject... So why don't you go and be a teacher and make that difference and be the one teacher that has the perfect classroom each and every time and show us all up that we were wrong. That there is a way to get through to every single child within x amount of time, having to teach curriculum and managing 30-40 other students, if its high school that number would vary to having to know probably 160--240 students in a single school year depending on how many periods you teach... Be that one that doesn't ever have to resort to things that violate your own principles or bend rules, meanwhile barreling down on you is more tests and performance reviews that affect your salary I think everyone would be genuinely be ecstatic if you changed around the whole system nationwide so that these things don't happen ever... I think you would deserve no less than a Nobel prize for this achievement.
Really!? Your point, in itself, is contradictory. If at some point it was the fault of those parents that didn't teach values then, suddenly, it become the whole fault of those children? Now, if those children can understand the consequences then why aren't they the sole decision factors regarding their education? How much do they understand, how much can they bear? @novalance Sorry but you won't convince me as your so called reasons/arguments are poor made and insist, in a wrong way, that the teacher should do something. If I insist that the teacher should do his best to follow the legal and moral norms, to follow the procedures and theorethical knowledge about how to teach and so on... You and others insist, in the negative way - place a amount of expectation on the teacher- that the teacher should place importance, more than he should, even to sacrifice him/herself for his students, in a selfish, arbitrary way. What we're talking about seems similar but it isn't. If in my case, I'm talking about demands from a theorethical point of view, demands that law and the profession in itself ask for; what are you doing? You try to Justify an illegal act based on reality. No. That's just a way to explain thing, why things should change, for what and not give way to arbitrary decisions and other similar things. Now, if you don't know.. Seting up someone can be followed by a law suit and i'm sure that, in most cases, that arbitrary decision won't be kept. Why? Easy, it falsifies facts and gives fake testimonies. The future of that teacher would be at risk. Aren't you demanding that the teacher should self sacrifice himself for something illegal? And for.. What? To 'save' a number of students by sacrificing am another? Isn't easier, more correct and constructive to just... Spend more time, in a private-public way with the problem child or to reform the system? There are other alternatives. What's there to understand? To 'set up' is illegal. From a legal point of view, I think that There's no justification, nor a cause that shows a lack of ration/mind from the teachers side. On contrary, from the part of young students. Did you read what i've quoted? Here, I'll quote again: when I student-taught, one of the pupils was a *real* pisser, and after four weeks of hazing, the vice principal started conspiring to find reasons to remove him from the class. I was a shocked but willing participant. You’d be stunned how one or two students’ presence orabsence can change the behavior of the entire class.) The bolded words make me believe that that teacher still thinks that what he/she did was correct. Now, to further analyze it we have that 'shocked' which reveales that the teacher knew, fully, what that did mean. But, he was a "willing participant". Why? Because he decided to be an unasked 'martyr' and correct wrong with wrong so that the result would be good. Ha. And no, i'm not saying that people can't make mistakes. I've asked if "is this ok or not'. See my first post. And that "His way of doing things is a big NO from my part. He failed as a teacher. He abandoned his student." is just a way to say that, from a moral point of view, there's no justification for his acts. From a professional point of view There are other words to be used: fault and so on... Yes, as if being sarcastic is the right thing to do with someone that tries to understand better the subject and is trying to have a serious conversation/discussion. You've entered the domain about sanctions - corporal punishment.. How is that an alternative? Alternative to what? If a child, as J.r saied, and if you chose to stick with opinion, knows the consequences, why apply that type of punishment, for what? To inflict paint? To 'motivate'? To punish? If, by applying that 'punishment' the consequences would be worse, what would you do? Say 'i'm sorry'? ... Plain wrong. Witouth even knowing how that 'punishment' would affect the one in question and to be willing to apply it, is a wrong thing to do. It's a risk that shoudn't be assumed as the consequences, in many cases, can't be changed. Whatever.. then you've talked about the number of students per/for teacher- that's another thing to change to the system. You point out, in a correct way, only what's in your favor. Even if you're talking about a 'correct system' that, in fact, it isn't you miss out few 'uncorrect' things. And one of them is the 'number if students that a teacher has to teach'. http://geniusinchildren.org/2013/09...values-or-is-that-the-parents-responsibility/ http://educationpost.org/issues/taking-responsibility/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children’s_rights_education http://www.publicagenda.org/pages/engaging-parents http://www.cdl.org/articles/the-right-to-read-and-the-responsibility-to-teach/ http://www.parentcenterhub.org/repository/pa12/ https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sour...SNMwvU1TX5inJhBPA&sig2=26awoWkOkMQxC9URgkMjcg https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sour...IV0WBxPTxVXYzF_tg&sig2=XUwOMCf85Y-AIqEF0KV8rA I've stopped at that teacher actions. And I've got no reason to know him/her better for me to understand those facts: he was willing & knew the primary importance of his/her acts.
I did also suggest having a parent accompany and escort a student to class if they are acting up... I didn't suggest physical discipline as like the ONLY thing or the end all or final solution to just fixing behavior problems. Do you want that teacher to be burnt at the stake...? And everyone to agree with you? He was wrong to remove the child from the class room, we ignore everything else that may or may not have happened. We don't know the full situation or whether is was just a mindcrime by the teacher. Willing participant in the conspiracy which could have been just them looking through an older rule book and citing it there, which legally isn't wrong. Ethically it would be frowned upon, but it is not legally wrong and within school rules and you have to concede that if the student was warned of the rules and chose to forgo the warnings he is wrong too... But we don't know the whole story... Now, you can say well he felt guilty because he did something wrong... Well, he could be feeling guilty because he couldn't help that student and felt bad, but also recognized that through it it benefited the class to his surprise... You can interpret what he wrote in many ways, admission of guilt to committing a crime or could be an admission of relief and sadness and not guilt... How's this.. I will concede to you and I would imagine everyone would that if the teacher and VP did go about removing the student through illegal or criminal means then you are completely right and if I was there I would stamp that execution order myself if I had the power and have them get whatever they are suppose to get that comes with them violating a student's rights and IEP. Or if the two of them did not do everything within their power within a reasonable time frame to help the student with adjusting to the class. Like perhaps the teacher and VP conspired to physically injure the student so he would be in the hospital or something maybe... Who knows, they could have done it that way. There isn't enough information to say they didn't do it that way.. Maybe they paid off school bullies on the lot with candy to do it...? Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes, you never know it could be what happened... I am sure people have done more heinous things for less... But, if the VP and teacher did do everything in their power and nothing was working. We don't know if they did. They did remove the student although it was through technicalities, they did go through proper procedures to do so which they probably did and it is still within the rights of the school. Hardly a chance a parent won't come back at them with a lawsuit if they didn't... Although regrettable, the student was beyond help for at least the two of those individuals(VP and teacher). Cause we don't know if the student was removed and just sent to another class. Who knows, maybe he is doing better now in a class where he is in a high-risk class which is designed to help disruptive students. The VP transferred him to a class that might have been more suited to help his personality and now he is doing better... It could be worse too... We don't know how the student was actually removed from the classroom. We don't know the full situation... Whether that conspiracy was full on fabricating and committing a thoroughly illegal act or something as simple as looking thoroughly in the rulebook for technicalities to call on... Or maybe it was just the teacher or the VP was just annoyed by the student and that maybe it was him just coming to school in simply in stinky clothes was enough to trigger everyone, which could be or couldn't be the fault of the student. Do we know for sure?
No. I don't care about the person, I'm talking about that fact, as an example. No. If the rules can be applied, then why 'set up'? If, the 'set up' was followed by "you would be amazed" then the intent is almost clear. And I'm not trying to round up something. It isn't my intention to force the truth. What i've wanted to point out is that.. The mean in itself wasn't the correct one, nor justified enough. You can try to appreciate it by using external and internal factors but, if, a legal action was made then.. It's verry probable that They'd lose. There's a difference between legal - illegal. And, most schools should have internal norms about how to deal with such situations: where the student doesn't care. Now, it was pointed out about how there was a lack if 'rules' but, instead. I'm wondering about why that vice didn't reform the rules, if they were outdated and why he didn't have/make an official stand/adopt an official position. There are even worse cases where the teachers are bribed not to sanction a student or, their superiors ... A crime is judged, primary, at the time it was made. The future consequences are /can be a way to aggravate the sanction as it can't be saied that they were easier at the time of apparition. I.e. if i hurt someone, the fact that he was healed/had treatment won't make my action dissapear. If, on contrary, a complication appears, i'll be sanctioned more drastically. If i was willing to offer money& treatment and so on, that's used to judge my character, not the gravity of my action. And no, we don't know for sure. That's all what I have to say. Let's agree to disagree.