Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, that was a mistranslation on the part of @ssj4maiko. It's the 3rd level god-tier form of spirit magic. I have seen it translated a few ways, like "divine spirit magic," "holy spirit magic," and "god spirit magic." I can see though where it would be easy to mistake "holy spirit" as meaning just "god" in the translation.

    (My hope is that it will allow him to turn the rank 14+ ghosts into gods.)
     
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  2. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Well, gods are technically spirits, right? What if this means Van can use spirit magic through, let's say, Vida? Or just dead demigods?
     
  3. Nakakure

    Nakakure Zadiris Empress Faction

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    IsVan Mana Basicly entering Great God Mana? His initial mana is same with Familiar spirit .
     
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  4. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Not all of them are willing to side with him, unless they already got his intent of an alliance, then they can either be informed or be deposed.
     
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  5. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Gods need worship whereas spirits are primarily 'designed' as beings of specific elements (fire/wind/water/earth/light/dark/chaos/etc) and if not mistaken, they need to be in their domain to thrive (only exception would be wind spirits).

    Only similarities I know of are classifications of Gods being Demigod/Minor/Major/Great and there have been humans in all sorts of lore becoming gods (not just in Death Mage) and spirits being Minor/Major/Great (just no human becoming one, but they do primarily use humanoid or beast forms).
     
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  6. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Gods are spiritual beings. They're not dead spirits, but they are spirits, or at least souls.

    Gods have attributes just as much as ghosts do. It's not like they need attributes, but they always seem to end up specializing in one attribute.

    Gods don't need to stay in their domains. Descending to the world without a proper vessel requires lots of energy, but it can be done.
     
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  7. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Your post is a full 180 of what I stated.

    1. Gods are divine beings, not spiritual. You can't really consider both the same as their origins are vastly different.
    -Gods are given form through some type of lore/worship
    -Spirits are namely birthed as parts of the world in a manifestation

    2. Gods can do a bit out of their attributes but not much as it's against their initial character (Alda being the prime example), Spirits are not able to do anything in another attribute.

    3. I never referred to Gods and their domains, I referred to Spirits and their domains, you can't expect a water spirit to do much on land nor a fire spirit to do much in water and so on so forth, they are stuck to their domains and can't alter it much.

    Edit: Forgot to add this bit in, not all Gods have to be living beings, some mythologies they were dead, such as Osiris being god of the dead (originally living before killed by Set and rez'd by Isis). Would use Odin, but not a fan of a head god using suicide by hanging just to gain knowledge as an example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  8. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Gods do not have physical bodies. They can make themselves bodies, but they are able to do more as gods if they are not incarnated.

    Why do their origins matter? In the end, souls are souls are souls.

    This is only true for gods born of worship. Other gods gain power from worship, but do not necessarily need worship. Rodcorte relies on souls using his system, for example. Gods apparently need to rely on mortals in some way, but they don't need worship in particular.

    What?

    Spirits can use magic from other attributes. If they remember how to use other attributes, they can even use them just as well as they could when they were alive.

    Where does it say that spirits can only use one attribute? IIRC, at least one light attribute ghost can use magic that's not light attribute.

    Water ghosts can do a lot on land, as proven by every water attribute ghost ever to appear in Death Mage. Orbia even gained an earth attribute affinity, so she is now a ghost with 2 attributes. Fancy that.

    Flame ghosts are, again, self-sustaining. They do not need need physical fuel to burn, which means that traditional flame retardants are probably useless.
     
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  9. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    1. Since when was it declared Divine Beings need physical bodies of any kind?

    2. Spirits are part of nature vs God(s) who're beings with some type of soul either being natural or a construct

    3. Spirits are birthed by the world they live in, not by gods/goddesses.

    4. It's not a matter of remembering the attributes they use, it's the conflict of nature between attribute.

    5. Spirits don't use magic, they're part of nature.


    Magic defies nature, using Orbia as an example isn't that great, plus she wasn't birthed by the world but by the Races of Vida (being formerly a Scylla), not much care if she can use fire/water/ice/earth in combination. Orbia is a ghost, not a spirit, even if she had the name of a spirit on her, she still a ghost in the end.
     
  10. SnowDorian

    SnowDorian Well-Known Member

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    and I'm saying that there is no option to stay neutral, when the situation reaches a point where Van meets the heads of the Kingdom Orbaume some Dukes are already aware of the existence of the Vidal Empire and that it is a nation with some military power .. I do not know how much Van will expose! the duchies that allied with Van will undergo a clear economic and military growth while the opposing duchies will enter economic recession because many merchants will prefer to do business in proper places the population and the nobility will begin to doubt the capabilities of leadership of the duke who is losing the opportunity to bring prosperity to his duchy, without putting into question whether Van will do anything against these dukes ... summing up with a player as powerful as the Vidal Empire appearing has not as some Duke of Orbaume pretend that he does not exist, and at the end of volume 11 (?) Duke Sauron and Duke Hartner have demonstrated very well that they prefer to avoid avoiding Van even without really knowing how powerful he is ...
     
  11. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    And when the Vidal empire comes to light they'll be regretting every second they spent ignoring him.
     
  12. anteopta

    anteopta Well-Known Member

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    then where did we meet a spirit if Orbia doesn't count?
     
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  13. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    They don't. However, having a body can be beneficial.

    But you repeat yourself.

    Dead spirits are not birthed by the world, and familiar spirits are created by gods. It depends on the spirit.

    Ah, okay. That makes more sense. But being spirits, they are probably less vulnerable to the elements than you think they are. Ghosts are incorporeal and they sort of wear their elements like a body.

    Spirits can use magic. Magic attributes can be considered part of nature.

    Magic manipulates nature. It defies nature only to a certain extent. It only mucks up nature in a big way when there's way too much uncontrolled mana in the environment.

    Her natural state is spirit form. Therefore, she is a spirit. Ghosts are spirits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  14. SnowDorian

    SnowDorian Well-Known Member

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    they do not ignore Van, the Dukes are afraid of him and avoid getting in his way again, but if Van offered a helping hand they would pick it up for sure and they have no idea he has a choice to ask for a chance to redeem himself this option because the current dukes of Sauron and Hartner did not kill any friend of Van effectively). I believe it is in this situation that Urz enters, she will speak to her father and persuade him to go personally to talk to Van and apologize and Duke Hartner should do the media with Duke Sauron because if I am not mistaken they are allies ...
     
  15. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Again, never said anything about Gods and Spirits having a physical body, I don't know where you keep seeing me say they have a physical body of some kind.

    I have too since you're ignoring what I've been stating and assuming a SPIRIT is created by GODS/GODDESSES when they're part of nature, Peria being a Goddess of Water and Knowledge is a resident Divine Being of an element doesn't mean they have full control of the element, but is able to introduce a type of life (mermaids and the such), same for Botin and the Dwarfs (being a being of Earth element) and so on so forth.

    Dead 'spirits' are just plainly earth-bound ghosts since they're remains of a dead being, no relations to the world in any sense other than man living on the world.

    Magic isn't the same as Nature, magic just alters the state of nature in one's surrounding.

    Ghosts are just remnants of a being, so a ghost using magic is to be expected (everyone has a little bit of magic in them from the newly born infant up to a dying elderly).

    Magic is a gift from Divine Beings, not something up and natural in an environment, and just like pollution, it spreads over time and contaminates the land and thus making itself 'naturally' part of the world (if magic can be removed from a person easily, then it should be given it isn't a natural phenomena).

    Orbia hasn't possessed anyone nor was she part of the world, she is just simply a ghost (or technically a wraith, can't say banshee as she doesn't scream at any living being).

    (Fun fact: A spirit possessing a body is sometimes malevolent and is common around people using forms of spiritual contact such as seance, Ouija, rituals, even religion)
     
  16. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Well, if gods don't require physical bodies, they are probably spiritual beings.

    Peria does have full control over the water attribute. Because that is her job. The same is true of Botin and the earth attribute. Their subordinate gods have control over smaller aspects of those attributes.

    If Lambda's original gods can be considered part of nature, why can't the same be true for the attributes they manage?

    Just stop with the semantics. Ghosts are dead spirits. This is acknowledged by the status system. It is canon.

    Everyone on Lambda would disagree. Magic has always been part of the world, so it is considered natural. It is part of nature. The death attribute is not a natural part of Lambda, but that's the only exception I can find.

    That is true, yes.

    I suppose that magic is a divine gift, in a sense. However, you don't need help from the gods to cast magic, no matter what world you live in.

    Yes, mana can contaminate the environment, but the gods are in charge of not letting that happen, and the gods are just as much a part of the world as magic is.

    Orbia could possess someone. Kimberly did possess someone a while back.
     
  17. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    Neither spirits nor gods/goddesses needs a physical body, but they are not the same. Otherwise, you may as well say a Lambda resident is the same as a god with a physical body, and I dare you to say I'm wrong since we've seen how many demigods killed on the DK continent when Van went to free Botin, Fitun was formerly human before becoming a god under Nineroad's jurisdiction (even though he was technically a minor god, but a god nonetheless), plus we have Van himself (then again he is also an exception as he's a monster in the truest of senses).

    If Peria had full control as you say, she could've wiped out majority of Guduranis' force by using a tsunami, same for Botin by causing an earthquake. a singular force of nature would be more than enough, and can save more people this route vs summoning heroes. Basically put, they have no real control of the nature they're a resident of.

    Not semantics, ghosts and spirits are not the same. Ghosts can go through reincarnation system vs a spirit which is something that can't be reincarnated, such as emotions. You say it's canon but the stats say they're ghosts, not spirits. Cursed weapons would be spirits, equipment from those fallen in Gudagarn's dungeon can be considered spirits since they're cursed with the hatred emotion.

    History would disagree with them, and simply shown it's part of the remains that was birthed from the remains of both the light and dark gods' fight after the major gods and goddesses births. Lambda practically was a barren world.

    Again, a gift, which means it's not a natural part of the world.

    No, mana will always contaminate the environment, regardless if there is a god in charge of it. Nature is the best filter for magic and man-made pollution along with time.

    Gods being a part of the world just like magic is an excuse to say they have full control of a world, when it actuality they don't have full control, and they make things worse by making subordinate gods on a redundant level (compartmentalization and micro-managing will often times cross one another).
     
  18. mai.rain

    mai.rain Well-Known Member

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    The issue with both the ghost and spirit argument is we don't have enough info.

    We know that spirits of the dead can become Gods, e.g. Alda asked Roddy to take souls out the system to become "sub" gods, we also know vida has heroic spirits or people who would be her "sub" gods if she wasn't weakened.

    So the real question is are ghosts a lower version of a heroic spirit and can they become a heroic spirit or "sub" god if they keep there sanity and/or follow the teaching of a god. So if Van becomes a full God would his ghost be able to be his "sub" gods.
     
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  19. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Yes, incarnated gods can be considered residents of Lambda. What did you think demigods are?

    Natural disasters would harm the humans more than the monsters. Peria and Botin could kill many monsters this way, but they don't do it because they aren't stupid.

    The status system acknowledges dead spirit magic. And that is the only answer I will dignify this with.
    [​IMG]

    I don't see a discrepancy. Magic has always existed on Lambda. How Lambda was born changes nothing.

    Only for a certain meaning of 'gift'. I didn't mean that mortals were literally given magic from a higher power. Don't twist my words.

    Again, canon disagrees. Yes, unnaturally high concentrations of mana will pollute the environment, but the gods can clean it up before it becomes a problem. The southern end of the Bahn Gaia continent has many evil gods who are not native to Lambda, but it is not in a state of disrepair because the gods take care of it.

    I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. The gods being part of the world does not make them omnipotent. They are just particularly important cogs in the machine that is Lambda. The gods have limited power, but Lambda can't survive without them.
     
  20. Reman Scimitar

    Reman Scimitar Princess Zadiris Faction

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    A cursed weapon is labeled as a spirit, not a ghost, or have you forgotten how many cursed crossbows are called as undead when Van made the three walls to defend Talosheim from siege from Mirg Shield Nation and Amid Empire. Spirit is a possession. And throwing the wrongness gif doesn't mean much other than you're trying to compensate for something.

    If they didn't bother trying to help the common races, then yes it'll be harmful. And fairly certain no living being man/god/demon/monster can survive a nature's wrath. And remember they've done some downright stupid things or have you forgotten the first Alda-Vida War?

    Again, a mere simple person with a physical body. Gods don't need a physical body 24/7 (Alda wouldn't stay on Lambda for what? Less than 10 minutes?), Spirits don't need it as it's just an embodiment of nature or a possession.

    Magic on a barren world? After the death of both the Light and Dark Gods, but not before, it was a sheer clean slate. No magic, no life, pure barren.

    A gift can also be part of their creation.

    Then name a time any of the Gods of Lambda has cleaned up a Devil's Nest in either Orbaume Kingdom or Amid Empire. I'll also include dungeons as that spills out mana into the environment as well since they were originally monster breeding facilities for Guduranis.

    Or like how you kept coming to the conclusion I said Gods have a physical body.

    Important to the point they overlap one another? Gods that are not redundant are not needed, Lambda is doing fine without Curatos and Fitun (so far). I don't get the idea where everyone thinks Lambda needs the gods to survive when a few Gods themselves know man should move on already from Gods to govern themselves, save for Brainless and his yes-men who're regressing man horribly to their current position.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019