Discussion The ongoing debate about chastity or love in the anime community.

Could you? I read up to 2007, but when it went on hiatus I didn't pick it up again, and a quick google didn't scream anything at me. Was it a purity / goddess issue about sex == defilement, which I could sorta understand, or a straight up 'you are a ruined woman' postclimax?

Edit: thanks, nevermind. : )

Edit2: From the article: "This is not an article about the anime fandom in general. I am criticizing what I view as the ugliest, most bigoted and most pathetic niche within the global fan community."
Yeah, these guys are creeps. That said, I think the creepy otaku dynamic of being in True Love with their 2D counterpart, and getting butthurt over not being their crushes OTP, is substantially different than the whole ruined woman vs slutty men bit.

 

I feel like there was a possibility that I was misunderstood in my quote. First when I referred to "based on their actions" I meant the women's actions (not the mens!)

If that wasn't the case, then you have to have to read things in context.
1. I was refering to "what their women did not preserve herself for him....it's the women's choice".
2. Rape was something that wasn't being discussed because leo.d. was refering to a women's actions. Unless a woman is raping someone else, a women shouldn't be judged for other's actions (someone raping her) but rather her own.

 

Oh I see! This is what the OP was talking about.

I guess because the readers got heavily invested in this manga, they felt betrayed that their "waifu" already had a previous lover. In a way, I can see why they would be shocked. First because having a former lover wasn't mentioned before her introduction (unless I am wrong cause I didn't read this). Second, because she's portrayed as a girl and not a woman so the readers assumed she was a virgin.

EDIT: To add on, the character Nagi from Kannagi fits a certain motif. She's not the older sister/milf type that has experience with sex. And so having Nagi experienced with sex violates the rules of her character design the reader had in mind.

Like imagine if you're watching the last ep of Naruto and Naruto was persuaded to kill everyone and end their friendships. You'd be shocked. I'd feel shocked. And we both would feel like we were misled and the author violated some rules.

Spoiler: 18+

I remeber reading this hentai where the boy was in a harem and all of a sudden got NTRed and that pissed me off because I felt like the plot was not going like it typically goes.

 

This topic kind of puts me in a bad mood~

 

Ah. Gotcha. I was conflating them because culturally, women are often - and in many Asian cultures almost always - judged and condemned for any form of sex whatsoever, consensual or not. Even western cultures have echos of this issue, though I like to think we're getting better. I agree that any person should be judged only on their own willing acts, but unfortunately that's not the world many hundreds of millions of women live in. : |

Every time I read chapters in any one of the female-oriented Chinese novels, this particular dissonance rears up and smacks me, and I've been on a 'romance' binge recently, so it's been festering. : )

 

I think it's relevant as a branch of the overall discussion. In a way, its one of the examples of the argument taken to extremes that are frankly sick and twisted.

As the article pointed out, the manga never actually clarified whether she was a virgin or not which is part of what made the outrage so ridiculous. Besides that, she's a goddess who's lived for centuries and to the gods, human bodies are like clothes so it's a moot point.

It's all about the delusion that their waifu should be a virgin so they can claim it despite the obvious fact that she's fictional.

 

Not really what he pointed out. He just said rape is rarely prosecuted. Pointing to an outlier and sensationalizing is not persuasive. And to be precise, rape victims can be shamed irrespective of gender. Male rape victims are given even less credibility than female rape victims.

PS: I think this has nothing to do with what OP said

 

Who she is or What she has.

Well, for me, the best is to make a decision while considering both questions. Both questions tell you something about the person so both should weigh on your decision.

Virginity in marriage in those times is root on one thing: the security of the progeny. Having a virgin bride is the only way for a man to be sure that the woman's child would be his. This is specially important in those times when the man is the one who could legally own stuff and titles that he could pass to his descendants. Any man in those situation would prefer a virgin bride.

This social and cultural climate has though. Men and Women are more equal. The need for the woman's virginity has diminished. Still there are pressure as to why virginity is preferred and the social situation in other countries still makes a virgin bride preferable.

A virgin bride just has advantages. All things equal, men would prefer the virgin bride.

On the other hand. You wouldn't decide on your partner based on virginity alone (even in those ancient times). That is just stupid and I don't think people who advocate for chastity means this. There is more a person than their chastity.

In the end, I think, the people on either side cast the argument in black and white. This is far from the truth. Virginity isn't exactly worthless, nor do virginity trumps all criteria. You have to open your mind to see the intricacies of the issue.

 

I kinda expanded on my point when I edited my statement. But I want to repeat here just so in case you didn't read it.

I do agree with you, but I wouldn't call it delusion but rather an expectation. The readers expected Nagi to be a virgin because the way her character model is typically described. Therefore, making Nagi experienced with sex violates that rule.

TD;LR I agree with you but not on the word "delusion" to describe that.

 

Rape is a whole different issue that women have to deal along with sexual harassment. I’m not holding you to that topic cause that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about consensual sex. I have a lot of issues with what you are talking about but let’s put that aside for now. If you have not had sex until you have sex with the women you are going to marry then your points I would consider to be understandable. These would be your values. You want a woman who will save herself for you and you are willing to do the same. If you have ever fucked before then you are nothing but a hypocrite hold women to a different value then men. That’s it.

 

If you're aiming for a peaceful marriage your partner chastity do make tremendous value (both for men and women).
On the other hand i think only people that overtly conscious of sexualization and the world within that sphere that would minds such details. Only relationship that see marriages as it's future that worth it's course and in marriages both sides would have obligations and responsibility to takes so chastity is nothing but small insignificant details.

But oh wait we're talking about fandom's and it's fans unbounded fantasy...

 

As i am a Catholic Believer where a woman's chastity is sacred, i don't care if a woman is tainted or not.

Welp, there was this one time where i met with a prostitute whom was arguing with a man over the payment, i could have ignored it. But after a man had hit the woman, i took a risk and give a solid punch to the man while running away with the woman at the park.

Now, after she scolded me for interrupting her business, she began to talk about her life of prostitution. After talking a long time, she thought that i would usually ignore her or just be an ass, but i was interesting in her story as i gave my opinion about it.

"Whether its man who you didn't love or having to sacifice your body for a future life isn't something noteworthy, but for the sake of something that you'll conceived in the future is something that i can respect.

My mom told me that women are far stronger than men and whereas we men break down for a small detail, women are strong, even through the hardships they faced, they stand up and rise again."

Welp, i was kinda scared about why she cried after that but i learned something that day.

Women are something that doesn't need to be protected, in truth, while we men though we would always protect them, it was always us being protected by them.

Even if women are tained, if we can love them, no matter how dirty she is, i would love her for who she is. Virgin or not...

 

I agree with your point. However I often got a little piss when people call a women who lost her virginity, dirty. It’s demeaning. Why should a women character be determined by her virginity? There is so many characteristics that makes up a women and makes a man fall for her but society had determined that the women’s virginity is the most important. Then again, I’m just being picky here. I agree with your point. I have made my own choice but I support any other women’s choice to do something different because it’s her body and she should control it

 

Because men can be like "Oh, i had sex with a girl and she's a virgin so it was good, heh, all you virgin bastards are underneath me" that would aroused a man's competitiveness from one another. Well, i can't be proud if the one i loved is used goods but if she truly loves me and i love her, she isn't used goods but something i can called a wife that i'm proud off. If a woman can be proud of me who makes mistakes, i can be proud of a woman not as a used goods, but as a woman who i call fall in love and be happy with....

Now excuse me while i drown in my bathroom with a gun(in case drowing fails)...

 

Honestly? I doubt most girls will lose their virginity to the person they marry.

It's just that simple, the older you grow the more this kind of concept becomes unlikely as you get more sexual curiosity... I think most women that hold their virginity do that only due to their own religious and/or moral beliefs, because they might just hide it from their family if it's due to society's pressures.

I lost my virginity to my ex and my significant other couldn't care less about it. I had sex with him and I loved it, now I have sex with my partner and I also love it, both are things that were amazing for me, but one is in the past while the other is in the present.

I don't get anyone that thinks virginity matters anything, a relationship just has a lot more to it than what relationships I had in the past.

 

so there such thing on anime community

 

We're all selfish pricks. The end.

 

Frankly the virgin love thing is very romantic. It's good if both parties are unsullied by failed romances, thus more capable of true love, but exploiting the pure feelings of a maiden to be a playboy loser is disgusting. It's ironic that harems are basically about a loser turning riajuu, when usually the whole point is how that guy is different. The nail gets hammered down, even in retaliation eh?

 

Also idol community, they're just as crazy. A story from someone who rescued a friend from a idol cult was at one idol's job shoot the fans gather behind a line 100 meters away and wait to see her meanwhile just peeing right in their pants as they waited. Although I think they would pause for shit, combine that with their insistence of their idol's being boyfriendless, yeah this applies to them as well.

 

It's very much related to the culture. Especially in Asia, where a woman's virginity is like the reputation of the whole family. It's very much possible that you could be lynched! by people due to their Orthodox thinking.

Personally, I'm conflicted about this topic and can't really get to any answer